9x4=36, and 12x3=36 ...WRONG !

[Guagle]

AFAIK, you don't get research amd production bonuses, you get Discounts on the cost of buildings, units, and techs.

I thought that maybe the 'discounts' worked the same way as the production bonuses you get when you are, say, aggressive and build a barracks in one city or when you have stone and try to build the oracle. In these cases the game tells you you get a 50% 'discount' when it fact you get 2x production.

I was simply wondering if maybe the same applied here: instead of needing 30% less beakers to reasearch a tech you got 30% more beaker from your city.

Obviously i was wrong.

Agree that they REALLY need to reveal all those maths. (so that somewhere you see those extra 3 beakers being added and know why)

Seconded.

 

[Guagle]

Why don't you try it yourself ? Takes only a few minutes. At Deity you pay
almost twice as much as at Settler-difficulty ( just looked for polytheism
as inca), but both get 3 beakers extra. Makes no sense at all.

Hey keep calm, i was only trying to be helpful. I'm worried too about this.

 

[Requies]

This caught my interest, so I did some experiments tonight. Here is what I concluded:

1) You get 1 beaker for existing. This is added to the research generated by your cities and is not affected by the research slider.

2) Your civilization gets a research bonus for knowing the technology(s) leading up to the tech you are researching. If you know the minimum requirements, you get a 20% bonus. For each additional requirement, you get an additional 20% bonus.

Take the Indian civilization, for example. They know mining and mysticism. Say they've founded a city where there citizen can work on a floodplain, so they generate 10 commerce a turn (8 palace, 1 city square, 1 floodplain). The research slider is set to 100%.

If they want to research Fishing, The Wheel, Agriculture, or Hunting (No requirements), they will generate 11 = 10+1 beakers a turn.

If they research Bronze Working, Polytheism, or Meditation (One requirement each), they will generate 13 = (10+1)*1.2 beakers a turn.

If they research Masonry (Both optional requirements met), they will generate 15 = (10+1)*1.4 beakers a turn.

These research bonuses appear to be independent of civilization, leader, and difficulty.

You're close. There are a couple more elements to it, however. Don't worry all shall be explained, soon.

Req

 

[angeleyes]

Don't worry all shall be explained, soon.Req

Wow, the messias is finally coming

will it be the great Prophet Requies, or the great Scientist Achorrath

Guagle, sorry for my impatience

Asperge

 

[kryszcztov]

Achorrath, thanks for this theory ! So far it fits with my experiments (follow my link on the first page), but with some restrictions :
- The net result is always rounded down, ie. with 10 commerce and science at 30% on a tech where you know one loose prerequisite (I believe that the strong prerequisites do not enter the formula, right ?), you'll get (3+1)*1.2 = 4.8, which will be rounded down to 4 beakers total, not 5. At least that is what I get on my Animal Husbandry as the first tech researched with Louis XIV, standard map, Noble level, patch 1.09.
- Not sure how the techs' deflation works in Civ4. Do we have to make contact with the civs that have the tech or not ? Are the techs' costs updated in the mouse-over throughout the game or not ? My experimentation fits your theory with no techs' deflation involved, but I'm not that sure.

I'll do some more testing later.

In your theory :
- I like the fact that you get a "discount" (a la Civ4, in fact a bonus) on techs whose loose prerequisites are partially or all already known. It makes sense and is a counter-effect to people researching only in one branch.
- I don't like the basic 1-beaker bonus that you get whatever you do, it doesn't make any sense. If I want to stop science, so be it ! Research in the tech tree can sometimes be very tactical, for example, see the Republic slingshot in MP games in Civ3. This system would destroy any attempt at that.

It doesn't change the fact that the game does a poor job of explaining that to you. The mouse-over should be updated with all the information you need on such a subject.

 

[Requies]

Wow, the messias is finally coming

will it be the great Prophet Requies, or the great Scientist Achorath

Guagle, sorry for my impatience

Asperge

As was promised.

Req

 

[Requies]

Wow, the messias is finally coming

will it be the great Prophet Requies, or the great Scientist Achorath

Guagle, sorry for my impatience

Asperge

Heh, you're sorry to Guagle, but not to me, eh....

Well, anyways, I've been working on this for about half a month and had the requirement part down in less than a day as Acheroth was able to do. Figuring out the technology discount was the biatchy part. I guess I could have thrown the first part up the day I figured it out, but I wanted it to be complete which it finally is (I know, just call me anal .)

Req

 

[Guagle]

Guagle, sorry for my impatience

No problem

 

[angeleyes]

Great work Requies : : I'm only not in the mood to study complicated things right now. I'm glad the hidden manipulations of the civ4-crew are now revealed.



@Kryszcztov, have to come back on this :

You remember in Civ3 you got
extra shields when your city grew ...? That wasn't a bug and it was
compete nonsense too.

Asperge

"Welcome new citizen in our growing town ! Go to work at once, first years
no food !". Here in Holland we do the opposite : first years no work, only
food..... " Both complete nonsence to me.



Thanks everybody who contributed to this thread.

 

[angeleyes]

Heh, you're sorry to Guagle, but not to me, eh....

Req

If i said something wrong to you i'm sorry, i only don't know what....

Asperge

 

[kryszcztov]

@Kryszcztov, have to come back on this :

"Welcome new citizen in our growing town ! Go to work at once, first years
no food !". Here in Holland we do the opposite : first years no work, only
food..... " Both complete nonsence to me.

I agree with you. This is what I wanted for Civ4 and it came true. Just to say that I knew what happened with Civ3 and how to profit from it. I'm as glad as you that it was removed because it wasn't right.

 

[Smirk]

"Welcome new citizen in our growing town ! Go to work at once, first years
no food !". Here in Holland we do the opposite : first years no work, only
food..... " Both complete nonsence to me.

Geez man, its just a game, those are pixels not people. Just assume the new worker was mooching off their parents up until the day they had to work, at which point (next turn) they earn their own food. I mean lots of times I produced more than I needed for growth, where did that food go? I'm not up in arms complaining about the rat problem, its just how the game was designed.

It was just an artifact of the turn based design they used, they calculated each item in turn and produced their effects, food was before shields thus growth happened, a new citizen was assigned and then shields were counted. I agree, it was silly and poor management for the player to deal with but, its gone, so relax man.

 

[angeleyes]

those are pixels not people

Can you prove that ?:

I mean lots of times I produced more than I needed for growth, where did that food go?

Into the pockets of the game designers

it was silly and poor management

No, they gave a bonus on grow to influence the player to grow faster,that way
the game got the wrong complications.


The reason i play this game and not Chess or Go is that it's both a strategic game
as a representation of reality, so if the designers spoil that last thing without no need,
i think that's not good.

Complications in a strategic game must be in depth, not at the surface.
Keep the surface as simple as possible.

And i'm criticizing because i love the game

Asperge