A Better AI.

[apatheist]

True, this might make a neat scenario, but I think it would be best to keep it out of a generic build. The more complex AI behavior we try to introduce, the greater the likelihood of error. And as a general principle, I'd rather have the AI with few preconceived notions of how to play.

Complexity is fine; it's specificity that you want to avoid. Maybe that's what you were saying.

The thing is the fact that a unit is a UU doesn't matter. What matters is what you have (or can have) stacked up against what your opponent has (or can have). My uniquely having Praetorians isn't so different from me having Iron when you don't, or you having Rifling when I don't. There's no sense in using this strategy when it's just a particular form of the general strategy of taking advantage when you are stronger.

 

[Uncle_Joe]

If you have a save game which has a reproducable crash or hang (either in loading the save, or in performing some action, or ending turn), please post the save.

Nothing directly reproducable. It will crash occasionally and then if we reload it works again for a while. It never really seems to crash at the same point. Its almost like it just 'times out' or something when it goes through some of the long turns.

What I'm wondering is whether Mansa and others that used to always beat me with the Space Ship are still capable of winning that way. Yes, I see them get way ahead on tech and sometimes have oodles of money. I've been playing nothing other than Better AI builds since the first and I can't remember losing in any way except by being crushed (or hopelessly stalled) by military or once losing to an AI Cultural Victory.

Are the AIs still winning with Space Ship? Anyone care to admit defeats?

As I comment above, to me it still seems that the AI would have a very hard time winning a Space Race victory with its current priorities. It has the techs often, but I can easily out-build it. From using Spies, I can see the AI usually has 1 big production city but the other cities are quite small in hammer output. So trying to build the multiple components like the Casings and Thrusters takes quite a long time (40+ turns in some cases on Epic).

In fact unlike stock 2.08, I've never even been 'threatened' with a Space Race victory if I've gotten out that far. I usually win the Race or else if I lose its because I get overrun militarily (rare by that stage). Usually when I lose it considerably earlier (Middle Age or earlier) and it militarily (or else a hopeless position that I resign).

Again, I find it odd that my production will be in the 400s and Rival Highest is 150's and we have equal tech (or they are slightly ahead). I can post a save if it will do any good with the caveat that I use a graphics mod (EDU) and a custom difficulty file.

 

[HardCoder]

National Epic artist pollution? Just yellow box what you really want?

I think that the artist points from National Epic should be ignored when trying to figure out "what kind of GPs is the player trying to generate here?" ... it is totally a special case. (I hate that aspect of the NE. Bleah.) The other polluting wonders, there's not much that can be done for them so the governor should just go with the flow I guess.

But you're probably right, if I'm so lazy that I can't be bothered to yellow box a priest in the city where I've built oracle and stonehenge, I suppose I deserve that surprise great scientist.

 

[Tiberias]

Also noticing a bit of a slowdown; quickest way to test this might be to load up the venerable "Earth 1000AD" scenario that ships with the game, it's big enough that it's very sensitive to underlying code efficiency.

Thanks for the latest release, very challenging . . . I think I'll be beating a tactical retreat to Noble difficulty . One concern that I have is that the AI might be a bit heavily slanted toward defense at the moment, which might, ironically, put AI Domination wins further out.

 

[Blake]

Update on slowdown. I used a save e-mailed to BetterAI@gmail.com (thanks!), first without BetterAI the turn took ~14s to process, with Better AI it took ~36s to process - the slowdown is certainly real!
I then disabled the new threat code and the turn took ~15s to process, isolating the culprit. I re-enabled and optimized the threat code for speed and the turn time remained at ~15s. Slowdown issue resolved .

(Note: time measurements were stopwatch stuff nothing too accurate but good enough)

 

[Uncle_Joe]

Slowdown issue resolved

Fantastic! I cant wait for the next build. The 1/1 build plays well, but the delays are really painful...

 

[weimingshi]

Blake is there anyway you can post the updated version as you fix them?

 

[The M'Hael]

Hello. This is my first post on these forums.

I have read these forums for a while, but never had a reason to post. or make an account

I am also am having a problem with the better AI mod. After I end a turn, if an AI tries to trade with me, I get a crash. The sound stutters for a second, then my computer restarts. No errors, no blue screens, nothing. I have a save game that i think might be reproductive. I tested it 3 times, and they all crashed with in a matter of 3 turns. Also note that I was not having this problem before Better AI. There may already be a fix for this, but I didn't want to read through 60 pages to find out

I would upload them here, but they are slightly over the limit, so here they are. I am also going to send a copy to BetterAI@gmail.com.

also included is a save that reports being unable to extract game data. This was saved right on top of a crash, so i though it might be useful...

The M'Hael

Edit: Oh and I did test to make sure it was not somthing else. I lowerd graphics, disabled certain settings, ect. I have made no changes to the INI except for the Autosave thing.

My specs are as follows:
AMD Althlon 64 X2 4400+
Evga Geforce 6800GS 256mb AGP
Seagate Barracuda 80gb Pata
1gig ram Dual channel

 

[Elhoim]

Welcome to CivFanatics, The M'Hael!!

 

[zarakand]

Welcome to CivFanatics, The M'Hael!!

Ah another Robert Jordan fan! Were you as disappointed by the 11th book as I was?

Sorry I know off topic..

In any case, great to hear that the slowdown issue has been resolved!!

 

[Sofista]

I played two games with the 1/1 build, and in both saw oddities (not that I'm going back now that I've found this!)

First game, monarch: I was out of the race for anything but survival, while the mainland in the end was split between Brennus, Cathy and Bismarck. Cathy was sandwiched between Brennus and Otto, and had a defensive pact with the former. She also got along with the latter. So I was expecting to see Celtia vs Germany, seeing how they were aching for a fight asgainst each other, and betting on Brennus to initiate the rumba (Bismarck surely wouldn't start such a mismatched conflict, right?). But then, Cathy, current UN leader, proposed to vote for diplomatic victory. I abstained.
Next turn, the results: Bismarck voted for Bismarck, Cathy voted for Cathy, and Brennus... voted for Cathy??
I could picture him singing "Kiss me Kate", but seriously, is it as planned?

Second game: Genghis started north of Cyrus, and as I was getting to explore that part of the continent war erupted. So I decided to stick around to observe the operations, although the grand invading force sent by Genghis amounted to two-archers-two. One got killed, and the other sat turn after turn just outside the Persian capital - defended by four archers.
Well! At one point (I'm not sure if the One Man Column had moved away one turn or not) I see turquoise flags all around Persepolis. May reinforcements have arrived from the rest of the empire? Waitamoment, shouldn't a flag be inside the city too...?
Yep, Cyrus was retiring his four archers from the besieged city. His capital! Holy city of Buddhism! Against the lone Mongolian archer, with no reinforcements from Genghis coming!
Anyone ever read Snaaty's "Story of a Persian leader" in the story forum? Because not even his fictitious bumbling leader would have shot his own foot like that!

 

[The M'Hael]

Ah another Robert Jordan fan! Were you as disappointed by the 11th book as I was?

I thought overall, the book was good, but it could have ended with more Bang!

Thanks for the warm welcome!

Update. I have also had it crash several times when assigning a worker to Auto...

The M'Hael

 

[Mosharn]

Id usually reload but it would go OOS within 2 turns or so. We would usually start again. no, im not using smart map just regular warlords with betterai. I dont know if it even the betterai causing it directly or indirectly. Just raw 2.08 warlords it might go OOS very rarely but its been much more requent since the 12/21 build, but it appears very random cause some games it goes great with no OOS but once one shows up its seems to keep coming back again

Just curious if anyone else has had the OOS Errors while using this AI in multiplayer. I am turning all my logs on next game and going to see if i can isolate the problem.

I will post my findings after this weekend when i get a chance to play a few more games.

Is there a zip anywhere containing all the sourcecode for this mod i could look at to try to help find the issues. I am not real familiar with sourceforge and was having trouble finding just a packaged version of the source code.

Thanks again.

I am semi new to moding for Civ 4 but i am a programmer so i am familiar with programming

I would love to help out where i could.

 

[Uncle_Joe]

One of my observations about the AI's production is that it doesnt seem to make any special efforts to obtain Coal. Without Coal, their are no railroads and thus no production bump. It also has to wait a while for 'power' for the factories.

Perhaps a greater emphasis could be placed on the AIs to obtain Coal if not through conquest then through trade?

 

[klokwerk]

Complexity is fine; it's specificity that you want to avoid. Maybe that's what you were saying.

The thing is the fact that a unit is a UU doesn't matter. What matters is what you have (or can have) stacked up against what your opponent has (or can have). My uniquely having Praetorians isn't so different from me having Iron when you don't, or you having Rifling when I don't. There's no sense in using this strategy when it's just a particular form of the general strategy of taking advantage when you are stronger.

Once again, I don't agree. The fact that it is a UU DOES matter. It was made to give an advantage to the civ who has it, so of course it matters that the enemy doesn't have it.

I just say you should ponderate slightly more the UU since you can be sure that it gives you a slight advantage over the opponent at the same tech level, nothing else. The raw stats of the unit doesn't account for its unicity.

It's all about ponderation, in the same way Blake modified weight for some squares depending on whether the civ was creative or not... Using the civ strength, exploiting the other civs weaknesses...

 

[Arlborn]

Hello. This is my first post on these forums.

I have read these forums for a while, but never had a reason to post. or make an account

I am also am having a problem with the better AI mod. After I end a turn, if an AI tries to trade with me, I get a crash. The sound stutters for a second, then my computer restarts. No errors, no blue screens, nothing. I have a save game that i think might be reproductive. I tested it 3 times, and they all crashed with in a matter of 3 turns. Also note that I was not having this problem before Better AI. There may already be a fix for this, but I didn't want to read through 60 pages to find out

I would upload them here, but they are slightly over the limit, so here they are. I am also going to send a copy to BetterAI@gmail.com.

also included is a save that reports being unable to extract game data. This was saved right on top of a crash, so i though it might be useful...

The M'Hael

Edit: Oh and I did test to make sure it was not somthing else. I lowerd graphics, disabled certain settings, ect. I have made no changes to the INI except for the Autosave thing.

My specs are as follows:
AMD Althlon 64 X2 4400+
Evga Geforce 6800GS 256mb AGP
Seagate Barracuda 80gb Pata
1gig ram Dual channel

Hey, did you try to go around the Crach without Blake's AI??? And what was your message in the crash exactely, or no message??
That save of yours, that has the data thing problem, does it has double the size of a normal save????

This is an issue 'well-known' in Warlords, specially with big Mods(note that I kinda of think its not really caused by Better AI in this case)..There is some threads, see if its some of this:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=188257

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=137706

 

[jkp1187]

Complexity is fine; it's specificity that you want to avoid. Maybe that's what you were saying.

The thing is the fact that a unit is a UU doesn't matter. What matters is what you have (or can have) stacked up against what your opponent has (or can have). My uniquely having Praetorians isn't so different from me having Iron when you don't, or you having Rifling when I don't. There's no sense in using this strategy when it's just a particular form of the general strategy of taking advantage when you are stronger.

But how many angels CAN you fit on the head of a pin?

We are making things complex, but I think that there is an inherent risk in doing so. Things should be no more complicated than necessary; adding an additional command for the AI in a "specific" manner in certain circumstances AND expecting things to work properly is simply asking too much.

Otherwise, I agree -- there are plenty of times where I've ignored my UU due to general conditions in the game and gone on to win anyway. The UU is merely a nice advantage at a certain time in the game -- I don't think it would be wise to command the AI to act more aggressively when the UU is available. It's not like the UU creates a golden age ala Civ III either. A civ either has a military advantage or it doesn't. If it does, it should press it; if not, it should work its other advantages.

True, the UU may HELP a civ have a military advantage, but it does not guarantee anything. The AI should base its actions on more objective criteria, just as a player should.... for simplicity's sake (in terms of getting the programming on the back end to work properly). And for reliability's sake (in terms of making sure that the AI is using a reliable strategy.)

 

[shadyforce]

I'm often confused about the numbers and information shown when hovering over units, tiles, names, etc, with some combinations of CTRL, ALT and SHIFT held. Though there have been some explanations of some things at various posts in the thread, I was just wondering if there is a comprehensve list and explanation of what everything means, somewhere? It would be handy, as there is a lot of useful and interesting information there that I can't decipher.

 

[The M'Hael]

Hey, did you try to go around the Crach without Blake's AI??? And what was your message in the crash exactely, or no message??
That save of yours, that has the data thing problem, does it has double the size of a normal save????

This is an issue 'well-known' in Warlords, specially with big Mods(note that I kinda of think its not really caused by Better AI in this case)..There is some threads, see if its some of this:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=188257

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=137706

I did not get the crash before installing Blakes AI, and as I said, when it crashes, it reboots. No errors, no blue screens, nothing. I will take a looksy at those threads though...

 

[Wodan]

Nothing directly reproducable. It will crash occasionally and then if we reload it works again for a while. It never really seems to crash at the same point. Its almost like it just 'times out' or something when it goes through some of the long turns.

I occasionally get long pauses when one or more of the AIs decide to do something. It's easy to see that most of the Better AI builds have resulted in some huge AI armies. So, when they go on the move, and then when another AI moves in response, there can be a lot of computation for your PC to do.

I've got a brand new computer and occasionally it's paused for 20 sec or so. I could easily see how someone with an older computer might have to wait for a minute or two. Not saying you have an old computer, Uncle Joe, but maybe this is a consideration?

Wodan