A CB-type mod

[Son of Moose]

In some respects this idea could "double-up" with the request for a single unitary megamod. [Such as integrating the Sevo Mod, GIR's Add-on Mod, Fujisan's Megalopolis Mod, Keddath's Add-ons, The Dale Mod, Amra's ALH Modpak, etc.].

However, my vision is somewhat different - possibly more simple on the one hand (as its focus will be more limited) but more ambitious on the other hand (as it will attempt to bring a new focus to the game).

Therefore, after this preamble, I am wondering whether the following would be possible (and whether anyone would be interested in trying to implement it):

Convert the current version of Civ 4 (Warlords) into a multi CB (City Builder) type game.

In other words:

• Add a LARGE NUMBER of new buildings*
• Add a LARGE NUMBER of new Wonders*
• Add a LARGE NUMBER of new Techs*
• Add a LARGE NUMBER of new resources*
• Add SOME new non-military units*

* Of course, all the new buildings, Wonders, Techs, resources and (non-military) units would have to be age-appropriate and (preferably) realistic.

This significantly enhanced multi-CB version of Civ 4 (Warlords) would quite possibly be "counterbalanced" by a significantly reduced military focus. [Indeed, it might be best to play this version of the game against extremely inept Barbarians (at the easiest difficulty setting) so that the player would be fairly free to expand his/her Empire without being too badly distracted by the attentions of (ai controlled) rivals].

Another interesting possibility might be the ability to alter the relative scale between human units, buildings and the surrounding landscape. I don't know whether this is yet feasible (I remember reading some very interesting posts - over a year ago - by Sn00py in this regard). If it were, it would be great to be able to introduce a more realistic scale between (especially) human units and buildings to more accurately convey the real sense of having multiple cities on the map. The ability to substantially increase the size of the individual "tiles" would also (presumably) provide one with a much greater feeling of space.

Once the SDK was released, there was also supposed to be the ability to change the appearance of cities on the map by altering the relative positions of their buildings. Is this feature now available? This would seem to be the "Holy Grail" of trying to introduce a fairly realistic CB aspect to Civ 4 (Warlords). Perhaps one could even permit multiple (say 2 or 3) copies of some of the more important structures - and actually see them on the gameplay map.

Indeed, my final "take home message" is as follows:

THE ABILITY TO SEE THESE STRUCTURES ON THE GAMEPLAY MAP IS OF CARDINAL IMPORTANCE!!

 

[Gerikes]

Another interesting possibility might be the ability to alter the relative scale between human units, buildings and the surrounding landscape. I don't know whether this is yet feasible (I remember reading some very interesting posts - over a year ago - by Sn00py in this regard). If it were, it would be great to be able to introduce a more realistic scale between (especially) human units and buildings to more accurately convey the real sense of having multiple cities on the map. The ability to substantially increase the size of the individual "tiles" would also (presumably) provide one with a much greater feeling of space.

The ability to alter the scale of units and buildings has been available for some time in the XML, in the Civ4CityLSystem.xml file. Increasing the size of the plots is available by the PLOT_SIZE XML key in GlobalDefines.xml.

Once the SDK was released, there was also supposed to be the ability to change the appearance of cities on the map by altering the relative positions of their buildings. Is this feature now available? This would seem to be the "Holy Grail" of trying to introduce a fairly realistic CB aspect to Civ 4 (Warlords). Perhaps one could even permit multiple (say 2 or 3) copies of some of the more important structures - and actually see them on the gameplay map.

The ability to control how the buildings are shown in the city plot is partially controllable through the Civ4CityLSystem.xml file. Each building has an entry that describes exactly how much of the city's plot to take up (an entire plot is 16x16 pieces. Some buildings take up a 1x1 space, some 2x1, some 2x2, etc.). Obviously not all buildings are going to be able to fit into the city, which would have to be remedied. My understanding of the LSystem, however, is pretty limited, so I'm not sure how one would really go about doing this. I would start with trying to increase the city root size from 16x16 to a higher pair of values and hope the game doesn't crash on you.

One problem you'll probably face is that to make the city's large enough to handle all the graphics cleanly, you'll end up making the plots so big that one plot might be the length of an entire screen, which is going to be a mess when considering troop movements.

It sounds like a neat idea though. It definetely is going to require some understanding of the LSystem, which seems to be a file that most modders just try to get through with as limited of understanding as possible due to it's complexity. The SDK is only going to be able to help you so much, unless you go a COMPLETELY different route (such as making multiple cities and making them all act like one via tricky SDK coding).

 

[Son of Moose]

Gerikes:

Thank you so much for your extremely helpful reply. It is reassuring to know that (at least) some of these measures can indeed be implemented.

Each building has an entry that describes exactly how much of the city's plot to take up (an entire plot is 16x16 pieces. Some buildings take up a 1x1 space, some 2x1, some 2x2, etc.). Obviously not all buildings are going to be able to fit into the city, which would have to be remedied.

Yes - it would either be necessary to:

1. Substantially increase the size of the entire city plot from 16x16 pieces (256 "squares") to at least 25x25 pieces (625 "squares")
2. If the former is not possible (due to it being hardcoded), sub-divide the individual pieces into 0.5 or even 0.25 units (although this does not seem to be a particularly elegant solution)

One problem you'll probably face is that to make the city's large enough to handle all the graphics cleanly, you'll end up making the plots so big that one plot might be the length of an entire screen, which is going to be a mess when considering troop movements.

Yes - this is a potential problem that will need to be avoided.

It definetely is going to require some understanding of the LSystem, which seems to be a file that most modders just try to get through with as limited of understanding as possible due to it's complexity.

Yes - there must definitely be a good reason that nobody (afaik) has attempted to manipulate this file. Hopefully there might be someone out there you might be game for such a mighty challenge!!

The SDK is only going to be able to help you so much, unless you go a COMPLETELY different route (such as making multiple cities and making them all act like one via tricky SDK coding).

THAT might just represent the "out of the box" type solution to this problem!!

Surely I am not the only person who thinks that Civ 4 (Warlords) would make the singularly most awesome CB game ever. Just imagine the possibility of confining the gameplay to the Ancient era (like the Ancient Mediterranean mod) and being able to "build" numerous Caesar 4-type cities. Now this would be something really special ....

 

[Son of Moose]

I have just completed a couple of minor experiments with XML editing:

1. I have altered PLOT_SIZE to 720.0 x 720.0 (from 180.0 x 180.0) - i.e. a FOURFOLD increase. The net effect is a really big looking map.
2. I have altered the CITY ROOT SIZE to 64 x 64 (from 16 x 16) - i.e. another FOURFOLD increase. The net result is a really "spaced out" looking city.

In many respects, these experiments appear MOST PROMISING insofar as it would seem possible to successfully play with these altered parameters. All one now needs are:

1. attractive models for the extra buildings
2. coding for duplicate copies of some of the existing structures
3. coding for a new city layout to accomodate the extra city root size (64 x 64 or even bigger) and the additional array of buildings

Maybe someone would like to take this matter a bit further ....

 

[Gerikes]

I have just completed a couple of minor experiments with XML editing:

1. I have altered PLOT_SIZE to 720.0 x 720.0 (from 180.0 x 180.0) - i.e. a FOURFOLD increase. The net effect is a really big looking map.
2. I have altered the CITY ROOT SIZE to 64 x 64 (from 16 x 16) - i.e. another FOURFOLD increase. The net result is a really "spaced out" looking city.

In many respects, these experiments appear MOST PROMISING insofar as it would seem possible to successfully play with these altered parameters. All one now needs are:

1. attractive models for the extra buildings
2. coding for duplicate copies of some of the existing structures
3. coding for a new city layout to accomodate the extra city root size (64 x 64 or even bigger) and the additional array of buildings

Maybe someone would like to take this matter a bit further ....

Post what you have, I'm interested in taking a look.

 

[Jeckel]

This does look to be interesting. If you could get a nice Civ: Rome feel, that would

 

[Son of Moose]

Jeckel:

Yes - that would be truly great.

A mixture between Civ 4 (with its awesome gameplay) and a city layout comparable to CivCity: Rome (or Caesar 4).


Gerikes:

I have taken a screenshot (from the Civ 4 demo) of a modified city after the 100 turns. Unfortunately the image is not particularly great - but it does illustrate my point that there should be a LOT of room for adding PLENTY of new structures to the city.

[http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=138543&stc=1&d=1158562513]

I hope that the above link works.

[EDIT: It seems to!!].

 

[Gerikes]

My worry is that even though there appears to be a ton of space between the buildings that the space isn't because it's waiting to fill it but because it never can. Even changing the numbe from 16x16 to something larger may not be enough, since the LSystem file has also the rules for how to fill that. There are rules for how to fill a 16x16 matrix, as well as 8x2's and 2x1's and 1x1's, etc. However, there are no default rules for filling a 64x64. I wonder if somehow it's still using the same rubik, but because the plot size is larger, it just makes the buildings appear more spaced out.

In other words, does the city have more room for buildings, or is it exactly the same but with just more room between each building? I've noted that in the XML it shows that Firaxis used a program called LSysTool to generate some of those rules. Perhaps we could get them to release it? I bet it would help us understand those LSystem files anyway.

 

[Son of Moose]

Gerikes:

In other words, does the city have more room for buildings, or is it exactly the same but with just more room between each building?

Yes - this is the proverbial S64 000 question.

I've noted that in the XML it shows that Firaxis used a program called LSysTool to generate some of those rules. Perhaps we could get them to release it? I bet it would help us understand those LSystem files anyway.

Well - maybe someone from Firaxis might just happen to read this thread. This would be a great gesture - although it would require someone with an active knowledge of programming to make optimal use of this tool.