A civ supermod based on Colonization economics

[lumpthing]

Hmm, well I'm all for decreasing micro-management but for the whole point of bringing in Colonization economics (or something vaguely like it) is to replace the silly generic shields and arrows with something entirely based on moveable resources.

So, essentially using the economic and POP models from Victoria: An Empire Under the Sun in CIV. Hmmmm, I think that might work, but the idea just sounds scary now.

I'd never heard of that game until now, but looking at the wiki article for it, it sounds similar, except that you don't sell stuff to the population, they just consume it. You only sell stuff to other civs.

Obviously micro-management could be hell, so I was thinking that, maybe, once you've set up roads and sea trade routes (which would be something new), goods and resources just automatically flow along them to where they're needed.

 

[lumpthing]

So here's my list of suggestions:
- Add quantified resources (as foundation): Each resource produces a certain output per turn (if it's "used" by a citizen); the output gets summed up per city and/or per player.
- Add trade goods: Buildings accept certain resources as input, and produce a certain amount of more sophisticated goods per turn; these are also collected per player/per city.

As for how to use these resource and trade goods stacks:
- Unit production and maintenance: Make units require a certain amount of resource/goods for training and maintaining them (for example, fuel for armored units).
- City and building maintenance: For example, power plants require certain amounts of coal or uranium in order to produce power, or a city requires certain amounts of food resources per population point.
- Trade with other civs: Just like trading resources now, only with amounts per turn.
- Adding a trade route mission (for ships): Ships travel back and forth between two cities (automated similar to automated worker builds), transporting resources/trade goods, adding/substracting to the resource/trade good stacks of the two target cities. Each city gets assigned a certain number of maximum trade missions it can accept/conduct (based on buildings, for example).

How would that sound?

I like all of those ideas. I just think that system should entirely replace the generic trade and production points, instead of being on top of them.

 

[faichele]

Hello!

That's the one thing I would rather not attempt; it's much easier to say "Unit X requires Y 'shields' PLUS A units of resource B, C units of resource D" than completely dropping the 'shield' system altogether; I doubt this is doable within reasonable time, if it's possible at all to completely dump the "shield" output used as foundation for any kind of game object (unit, building etc.).

Apart from the programming, it's also much easier to handle with modding, if you add an additional resource system on top of the existing one and make it optional instead of mandatory to use it. That way, you can simply continue using the "shield" system for units, buildings, processes, and only make some game objects require additional support in form of resources and trade goods.

I like all of those ideas. I just think that system should entirely replace the generic trade and production points, instead of being on top of them.

 

[lumpthing]

I've done any real programming-style modding but I would have thought the arrival the new Colonization would make the job much easier, because that could be used as a base.

 

[faichele]

The question is how the Colonization SDK will actually implement quantified bonus resources and how it'll manage the flow of trade goods, and how big the differences between the BtS SDK and the Colonization SDK will be.

 

[lumpthing]

Well from everything revealed so far it looks like the new Colonization is being kept as close as possible to the original. I'd be extremely surprised if they have shields and arrows (are trade points arrows? I can't even remember) because that would make Colonization a completely different game, and much more like a Civilization mod.

 

[CyberChrist]

It is an interesting concept, but how do you propose handling research of new techs in the ancient era without commerce? Will Palace allow a scientist - and/or other specialists? (Or is the specialist system also to be canned?)

 

[Gumbolt]

The thing I dislike about trading to your own people. If your stock of fur, rum and other product goes down each turn because your people just use them you would have no produce to sell and this would impact game progress due to lack of funds.

So what system could be used to implement this? Why would you send goods back to the mainland, trade with indians and other nations if all your citizens bought the goods anyway? It removes part of the challenge and fun for me.

I think the idea of having a local shop/trade channel where you can specify stocks to sell to your citizens could be an options if you really wanted to use the idea. Simply add an extra layer to stock held in each colony. I would heavily penalise value of each item sold. End of day your home country is expecting you to bring goods back to sell and would pay well for them. Why send a ship to trade goods if your colonist just buy them anyway.

I would also restrict the sales to finished goods once they have left the factories.

I do think the size of these colonies is going to be 100's rather than thousands of people. So demand is likely to be minimal anyway. The whole idea of the game is to build a trade empire makes lots of money. Build your colonies and armies and then declare independence.

Hmmmmm food for thought.

 

[lumpthing]

It is an interesting concept, but how do you propose handling research of new techs in the ancient era without commerce? Will Palace allow a scientist - and/or other specialists? (Or is the specialist system also to be canned?)

Personally I would ditch the science rate completely. Instead, buildings would generate science points. Educational buildings would generate the most science, but all other buildings would generate a little science too, since historically, many new ideas have come simply from craftsmen improving their equipment. Perhaps trade in itself could also generate a little science, because trade means exposure to new ideas (especially trade with a more advanced civilization).

 

[CyberChrist]

Personally I would ditch the science rate completely. Instead, buildings would generate science points. Educational buildings would generate the most science, but all other buildings would generate a little science too, since historically, many new ideas have come simply from craftsmen improving their equipment. Perhaps trade in itself could also generate a little science, because trade means exposure to new ideas (especially trade with a more advanced civilization).

Yes I understand that, but when you start out you will have none of that available - no buildings, no crafts, no trade etc. Or if you suggest they do then what types of buildings does a society just stepping out of the stone age and settling down have? If it is based on buildings that come with starting techs I can see some grave inbalances from starting or not starting with certain techs (a lot more so than in a game using regular civ mechanics).

In essence I am asking about how you invisage this happening in a reasonably balanced manner on day 1 from settling your first city?

 

[lumpthing]

The thing I dislike about trading to your own people. If your stock of fur, rum and other product goes down each turn because your people just use them you would have no produce to sell and this would impact game progress due to lack of funds.

...

I do think the size of these colonies is going to be 100's rather than thousands of people. So demand is likely to be minimal anyway. The whole idea of the game is to build a trade empire makes lots of money. Build your colonies and armies and then declare independence.

Well the idea is for the supermod to be the scope of Civilization, not Colonization

 

[lumpthing]

Yes I understand that, but when you start out you will have none of that available - no buildings, no crafts, no trade etc. Or if you suggest they do then what types of buildings does a society just stepping out of the stone age and settling down have? If it is based on buildings that come with starting techs I can see some grave inbalances from starting or not starting with certain techs (a lot more so than in a game using regular civ mechanics).

In essence I am asking about how you invisage this happening in a reasonably balanced manner on day 1 from settling your first city?

Well the palace could be the most important science-generating building in the ancient age. Also, we could say that everyone, even farmers, generates one science point. I mean, farmers improve their equipment and create progress. I'm sure there are other easy solutions too.

 

[CyberChrist]

Well the palace could be the most important science-generating building in the ancient age. Also, we could say that everyone, even farmers, generates one science point. I mean, farmers improve their equipment and create progress. I'm sure there are other easy solutions too.

OK, sounds like a reasonable starting point.

EDIT: When using a model like that it would make sense, if the research generated by each worker was modified based on their profession in relation to what was being researched. Ie. hunters give a bigger yield towards military techs, farmers a bigger one toward engineering/medical techs and more specialized workers higher yields toward more specific tech etc..

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Another thing to consider though, guys, is that though science buildings could produce "science points", the amount they produce should still be determined by how much of your budget you allocate to Research and Development-though this should be something different from the old science slider. Civics should also continue to impact on the science your empire pumps out.

Aussie.

 

[faichele]

Hello!

Based on the thread subject, I thought the focus was exclusively on resources and refined goods based on these? Now also replacing the science commerce is desired? I didn't want to do this, but what already is in the World of Civilization code base is an additional type of commerce called "philosophical", which is intended to be an additional requirement for non-technical results of technologies you research, like enabling new civics: The plan is to add a "philosophical" requirement to civics, so that you can only switch civics if you have enough of the new commerce AND the tech requirement instead of only the tech requirement. Would that be (part of) what you intend?

Oh, and before I forget: There's also a second new type of commerce calles "spiritual", which works similar for religions.

Another thing to consider though, guys, is that though science buildings could produce "science points", the amount they produce should still be determined by how much of your budget you allocate to Research and Development-though this should be something different from the old science slider. Civics should also continue to impact on the science your empire pumps out.

Aussie.

 

[wolfigor]

OK, sounds like a reasonable starting point.

EDIT: When using a model like that it would make sense, if the research generated by each worker was modified based on their profession in relation to what was being researched. Ie. hunters give a bigger yield towards military techs, farmers a bigger one toward engineering/medical techs and more specialized workers higher yields toward more specific tech etc..

This is really an interesting idea!
The direction of your science will be determined by the "nature" of your CIV and only partially by your explicit choice, making it easier (faster) technologies that are in synch with the nature of your people.

I would add more.
It will be nice to have a system similar to the old "master of Orion" where you can explicetely select which technology to reserch, but only to allocate % of reserach point to categories.

 

[lumpthing]

Hello!

Based on the thread subject, I thought the focus was exclusively on resources and refined goods based on these? Now also replacing the science commerce is desired? I didn't want to do this, but what already is in the World of Civilization code base is an additional type of commerce called "philosophical", which is intended to be an additional requirement for non-technical results of technologies you research, like enabling new civics: The plan is to add a "philosophical" requirement to civics, so that you can only switch civics if you have enough of the new commerce AND the tech requirement instead of only the tech requirement. Would that be (part of) what you intend?

Oh, and before I forget: There's also a second new type of commerce calles "spiritual", which works similar for religions.

What's World of Civilization? I don't really understand this idea of new type of commerce called "philosophical" or "spiritual". How are these generated?

The reason I would prefer to get rid of the science rate system is that I don't like the way that in civ the purpose of your economy is simply to generate science. Wealth, and the power it brings (science spending being only one facet of that power), should be the object of trade and commerce, not a 100% science rate.

 

[faichele]

Hello!

World of Civilization is the "mother of all modding platforms" .
See: http://forums.civfanatics.com/forumdisplay.php?f=276
http://www.woc.dreamhosters.com/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page

As for the commerces: They can be generated just as other types of commerce by specialists and buildings; I plan to tie them to religions and civics as additional requirement for switching to more advanced types of civics besides researching the required techs; this kind of "splits" the science commerce already, I think, though not for the pure research of techs, but rather for representing new ideas and philosophies, a point that's missing in Civ in my opinion.

What's World of Civilization? I don't really understand this idea of new type of commerce called "philosophical" or "spiritual". How are these generated?

The reason I would prefer to get rid of the science rate system is that I don't like the way that in civ the purpose of your economy is simply to generate science. Wealth, and the power it brings (science spending being only one facet of that power), should be the object of trade and commerce, not a 100% science rate.

 

[lumpthing]

Okay I understand now. Well that sounds good but personally I'm more interested in abolishing generic 'commerce points' altogether. I think all commerce should be actual transactions of goods and services, like in Colonization.

 

[faichele]

Hello!

Has this economics idea vanished again? Or is there still interest?
I'd just like to mention that the World of Civilization SDK will contain the most important building blocks for the economics system sketched out here in the more or less distant future.

First: Restricted resources, allowing to specify capacities for bonus resources (production per turn and overall capacity for limited boni like metals or oil).
Second: A resource conversion function, which will allow to transform basic bonus resources into more refined types (iron ore -> steel) via buildings in cities.
Third: A more generic trade goods system (also using capacities), allowing to trade resources with other civs, and/or requiring them as input for city maintenance.

If anyone with programming/art/XML skills is willing to help, or as soon as the first working prototype will come up, to test, you're more than welcome to join!