A core set of balance changes

[Ahriman]

I agree with everything except the growth of things other than lumber mills. Lumber mills growth bring them from a 3 yield tile to a 4 yield tile. Making them inline with most other improvements.

?
Strongly disagree.
Forest with lumbermill becomes 1f3h.
Hill with mine becomes 3h.
This is not balanced.

And pastures end up with the same yield as normal resources, whereas they should have a larger yield; bonus resources should be bonus. A tile with a bonus resource should give a higher yield than one without.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

I agree with everything except the growth of things other than lumber mills. Lumber mills growth bring them from a 3 yield tile to a 4 yield tile. Making them inline with most other improvements. Moment to a river makes it the common 5 yield that most tiles by rivers get.

The only tile that doesn't grow, and maybe should, are the mines. because they seem to be the only tile in the game that doesn't increase it's yield to 4 non-river, and 5 river. Mined non-river hill is always 3, riverside hill is always 4... However, I wonder if the farmed riverside hill is the reason for that. That shouldn't be removed, by the way.

Basically, every tile has a max output of of 4 non-river, and 5 river (due to the gold)... what improvements you choose are what dictate what the makeup of this yield is. I don't think this dynamic should change at all and if anything, I think Mines produce less than other tiles because raw production get's modified more and, in comparison to gold, you require less of it to utilize it's benefits.

However, Lumbermills produce the same resource but DO grow

So the solution is to remove growth from Lumbermills OR add it to Mines.

 

[King Jason]

I edited in the bit about lumber mill yields in comparison... and of the two options I'd remove llumber mill growth, personally.

and the matter of "bonus resources should be better" is a matter of opinion, not balance. I think bonus resources are bonuses in the sense that they allow you a unique yield makeup. For example, sheep on hills allows you the advantage of 2f 2p without needing the tile to be next to a river... Imo, that's a nice bonus.

 

[Buccaneer]

Ahriman, you said...

If you want a cultural win, you should be forced to stay small.

then you said...

Using a single city, or only 2 cities, should not be a good viable strategy. It should be a very niche strategy for achieving a cultural win.

Why should the game force you into using a very niche strategy? I think one should, with lots of changes, be able to win a cultural victory without forcing you to stay small or to grow large.

 

[Roxlimn]

Ahriman:

How so? You can always expand very, very quickly. Arguably, expanding like mad is easier the further in the game you are, because the Maritime bonuses allow small cities to grow like rabbits.

Size 14 cities is about Medieval Era. Industrial is just one era away, and it has the hospital. Should the building be moved into the Medieval Era?

 

[King Jason]

Size 14 cities is about Medieval Era. Industrial is just one era away, and it has the hospital. Should the building be moved into the Medieval Era?

I think the Med lab should be renamed and moved earlier. That'd make better sense, imo.

Maybe call it an Aqueduct.

 

[Roxlimn]

That would be too effective when combined with Hospitals.

 

[King Jason]

You could push Hospitals later, If we're getting a growth effect as early as the medieval era now, it should be the less of the two, imo. Oddly enough, I took a look at the tech tree and Engineering is one of the first tier medieval techs and even has a picture of an aqueduct... so there's an appropriate name and spot for it. But anyway, you could bump instead bump hospitals to penicilin instead which would have a bit of a balancing effect anyway since empires will be getting growth assistance earlier, and for a longer period of time if there's a growth building in the medieval era.

Also, while we're discussing balance and I had the tech tree open. For ease of presentation, swap Fertilizer and Rifling so Rifling can be a prereq for Replaceable parts. Then make Rep parts a prereq for Telegraph.

That way, I can't go through a game and build Mech Infantry without ever having learned the technology that allows for Riflemen, or regular infantry. Not to mention never having discovered the "tank" technology (which I didn't address with my changes) ` That's so silly.

 

[Buccaneer]

Also, while we're discussing balance and I had the tech tree open. For ease of presentation, swap Fertilizer and Rifling so Rifling can be a prereq for Replaceable parts. Then make Rep parts a prereq for Telegraph.

Gameplay balance shouldn't strictly adhere to real-life logic or ease of presentation. I don't have the tech tree open but are you implying that you want Rifling even earlier?

 

[King Jason]

Gameplay balance shouldn't strictly adhere to real-life logic or ease of presentation. I don't have the tech tree open but are you implying that you want Rifling even earlier?

No, rifling and fertilizer are in the same place on the tech tree with the same amount of tech costs across the game to learn both, and I'm not talking about real-life logic, I'm talking about game balance. Why would I ever go for rifles, infantry, or tanks, when I can skip them all for a perfectly fine 50str unit that doesn't require a strategic resource.

Every other unit needs to research their techs in the appropriate order except for Spearmen and pikemen.. they're the only other exception. You can get pikemen without learning about spearmen. Everything else, you cannot get access to a later unit of the same type without having the requisite techs of it's earlier counter-parts. The Rifles->Infantry-> mechs allow you not one era jump without the earlier counter-part... but two era jumps.

 

[ignite]

Oh, and don't forget fixing build Wealth.

Not an important issue. Just never do it.

It is an important issue. If you're more concerned with gold output in a city than science output, and you have nothing more to build, it shouldn't be more viable to build a scout and sell it than to use wealth. The 10% is just far too low. You can push out a scout in 1 turn and sell it for 10 gold, so you would need at least 100 production to convert 10% of that into 10 gold. However, it's far more economical to focus on gold (instead of production), and then just continue to build scouts and sell them.

Don't be so hasty to disagree and shoot down what everyone else calls an important issue -- others have opinions just as you do.

 

[Buccaneer]

No, rifling and fertilizer are in the same place on the tech tree with the same amount of tech costs across the game to learn both, and I'm not talking about real-life logic, I'm talking about game balance. Why would I ever go for rifles, infantry, or tanks, when I can skip them all for a perfectly fine 50str unit that doesn't require a strategic resource.

Every other unit needs to research their techs in the appropriate order except for Spearmen and pikemen.. they're the only other exception. You can get pikemen without learning about spearmen. Everything else, you cannot.

Understood.

 

[rune42]

?
Strongly disagree.
Forest with lumbermill becomes 1f3h.
Hill with mine becomes 3h.
This is not balanced.

And pastures end up with the same yield as normal resources, whereas they should have a larger yield; bonus resources should be bonus. A tile with a bonus resource should give a higher yield than one without.

Its balanced because if you chop a forest, you get the benefits of burst production, but you can no longer build a lumbermill on the tile. If mines were equal to or better than lumbermills, then there'd be no reason not to chop down a forest as long as theres a hill nearby.

Since production is slow at the start of the game, you can make the case that waiting to get upgraded lumbermills don't give enough of a benefit compared to chopping a forest for early-game production(the period where production matters the most). And hence, it is lumbermills that need a further buff, not mines.(although I believe its balanced as is)

 

[Ahriman]

Why should the game force you into using a very niche strategy?

If you want to win with a niche victory type, you should have to use a niche strategy.

You should have to customize your strategy to the victory type. Otherwise there's no point in having victory types. To achieve a passive victory like culture, you should have to give something up.

[Actually, I wonder if city state gold contribution costs should scale by era too. Why should you pay the same gold in absolute terms for larger benefits late-game?]

How so? You can always expand very, very quickly. Arguably, expanding like mad is easier the further in the game you are, because the Maritime bonuses allow small cities to grow like rabbits.

Not sure what you're referring to here, please quote text you're commenting on.
Did you see that I changed Maritime city states?

I think the Med lab should be renamed and moved earlier. That'd make better sense, imo.
Maybe call it an Aqueduct.

I like this.
Rename hospital to aqueduct and move it to engineering and reduce cost, rename the medlab to hospital and add something else to biology.

Also, while we're discussing balance and I had the tech tree open. For ease of presentation, swap Fertilizer and Rifling so Rifling can be a prereq for Replaceable parts. Then make Rep parts a prereq for Telegraph.

I like this.

and you have nothing more to build

This never happens on any real difficulty level.

Its balanced because if you chop a forest, you get the benefits of burst production, but you can no longer build a lumbermill on the tile. If mines were equal to or better than lumbermills, then there'd be no reason not to chop down a forest as long as theres a hill nearby.

The benefits of chopping are tiny.
1 yield tile difference is not balanced. Hills should be for industry. Forest tiles are flexible.

you can make the case that waiting to get upgraded lumbermills don't give enough of a benefit compared to chopping a forest for early-game production(the period where production matters the most). And hence, it is lumbermills that need a further buff, not mines.

Wha?
This makes no sense to me.

 

[rune42]

Tiny benefits? You gain 20-60 production for a chopped forest. Once lumbermills are upgraded to produce 2 hammers, it still needs 20-60 turns before it'll break even with a chopped forest. Considering how on standard speed, 4000 BC - 2050 AD is 500 turns in total, you gain a hefty early-game turn advantage by chopping down forests.

 

[Martin Alvito]

Couple specific thoughts:

4. Reduce the strength of the horseman and companion cavalry by 2

It's the movement that's the problem, not the strength rating. This should be intuitive, since you don't see anyone complaining about Knights or Cavalry. The 12:11:7*2 ratio of Horses:Swords:Spears isn't dissimilar from the 18:18:10*2 situation in Medieval or the 25:25 situation in late Renaissance.

Knock Horses down to 3 like every other mounted unit other than Lancers. Let CC have their 14 strength and knock them down to 3. (Letting Alex have 12 Str, 4 move Horses when no one else does is a really bad idea for MP.)

At that point, Camel Archers start to look phenomenal, but it will take most of the community a long time to figure that out. Also, CAs need to be altered (like Chariot Archers) to deal Ranged damage rather than Mounted damage to Spears/Pikes.

5. Increase the defensive improvement of all city defensive structures by ~25%. Maybe 50%? Defenses should be meaningful. At the moment, they aren't. This would also tend to reduce the problem where as soon as an AI loses its army, you can rapidly conquer all its cities.

Weren't the cities in the demo unit-eating monsters? I remember noticing a precipitous drop in city defense ratings when I bought the full game. Weak defense also ratings makes capturing cities worthless until the combat is already decided; they just flip right back if sneezed upon, costing you the garrison unit. Having the city in play adds all sorts of interesting tactical wrinkles.

 

[King Jason]

Add something else to biology, rename the medlab to hospital, rename aqueduct to hospital and move it to engineering and reduce cost.

Your wording of this confused me, but I think I get what you're saying so I'm gonna spell it out a little clearer especially because I like it more than simply pushing hospitals back further.

The total growth assistance from buildings is 75%, 50% from the hospital and 25% from the med lab. One big concern raised here is the slow of pop growth in the mid teens. This point is reached in the mid-game, era-wise.

If you break the hospital in half, and put it into the aqueduct building that could come as early as Engineering, you potentially solve the slow growth issue without having the full 75% come online at Biology. Once you get Biology and build hospitals, the "granary" effect will still rest at 50%.

The main bonus of the early aqueduct building is that growth doesn't shut down in the mid-game and wait for the industrial era. In fact, the growth will probably be pretty steady and balanced across the game.

In sum, you could have an Aqueduct, Hospital, and Medlab store food for city growth at inteverals of 25% each... the sum total being the exact same at is in the game now, the only difference being we get a 25% growth boost earlier in the game than we get now, the increments for the rest of the game (50% at biology, 75% with penicilin) remain the same.

Lastly, if the tech was decided to be Engineering... that'd produce interesting decision making because a player would need to decide between civil service and +1f to rivers or Engineering and 25% food storage per pop. Even if the decision is easy to make, it encourages backfilling to the opposite tech in order to maximize growth, which I enjoy personally because I hate how I can successfully make it to biology with barely having classic/medieval techs researched.

 

[Ahriman]

It's the movement that's the problem, not the strength rating. This should be intuitive, since you don't see anyone complaining about Knights or Cavalry. The 12:11:7*2 ratio of Horses:Swords:Spears isn't dissimilar from the 18:18:10*2 situation in Medieval or the 25:25 situation in late Renaissance.

Hmm... that might be best.

Let CC have their 14 strength and knock them down to 3

Probably works. Maybe a small cost decrease too then? Its a big nerf otherwise (though needed).

Your wording of this confused me

Sorry, I messed up the wording.

If you break the hospital in half, and put it into the aqueduct building that could come as early as Engineering, you potentially solve the slow growth issue without having the full 75% come online at Biology. Once you get Biology and build hospitals, the "granary" effect will still rest at 50%.

I like this, as long as you break up the hammer and maintenance costs too.

 

[Monadenia]

[Actually, I wonder if city state gold contribution costs should scale by era too. Why should you pay the same gold in absolute terms for larger benefits late-game?]

I'm quite certain that this occurs. Probably not by enough at the moment, and the same seems true for research agreements. (Also, the relative benefits of city states are certainly larger early game, as far as I see).

One thing to consider is that later in the game, the intensity of rivalries should heat up quite a bit, as many civs will fall behind the pack (city states could get taken over, respectively). The opportunity for research agreements is a fair bit less. But with the AI the way it is currently, there doesn't end up being a whole lot of competition for city states. A lot hinges on competition from the AI.

 

[Martin Alvito]

Probably works. Maybe a small cost decrease too then? Its a big nerf otherwise (though needed).

There are a few ways to go about it if you want CCs to remain very special.

1) Heals on kills.
2) Doesn't require Horses.
3) 60H

Any of those will yield a potent early game UU, even with the movement nerf. 1 and 2 are riskier balance decisions; 3 may be too weak. 1:1 strength parity with Spearmen with a 1:1 cost ratio, but a meaningful unit cap doesn't provide much incentive to prioritize Horses even for Greece. You'd rush via Hoplite spam instead, teching IW to squat/pillage Iron.

Even if the decision is easy to make, it encourages backfilling to the opposite tech in order to maximize growth, which I enjoy personally because I hate how I can successfully make it to biology with barely having classic/medieval techs researched.

Sure, but it doesn't do you any good without Steam Power, which requires backfilling almost everything else prior to that. The tree does a nice job of choking things down at that point. If you've run all the way out to Biology, you've got Science and Culture buildings, but nothing else. Which is fine; a pure builder wants that stuff ASAP, and should be able to take some risks to get them quickly.

The biggest issue with the tree right now is how quickly you can rush to Rifles with Artillery support, as opposed to the amount of time it takes to reach alternatives.