A Dormant Moo2 Mod

[Gidoza]

I've never had a problem fighting interceptors...I can scarcely remember a time when one ever hit me (and I'm talking about human players now, not just comps). Very easy to knock them out with beams in my experience.

Anyways, I must go now. I thank you for the discussion - I'll be back next week, as I'm gone out West for a while. Talk to you, later!

 

[Darza]

Sure, and join irc. I or somebody else there could easily show you how to use them right. If you never had a problems with them yet, then you never played this game a right way yet, and i suppose it could be needed prior starting to mod.

 

[scratchthepitch]

Gidoza

I like your idea about beams getting better as you travel up the tech tree. In the game, the beams do hit better as you advance up. A Gauss Cannon does hit better than a Mass Driver. But the improvement isn't enough to balance out a poor computer and lack of hitting specials. I think they needlessly complicated the game with the computers and a lot of the specials. That complication probably made the AI ship design programing weak. They could have left the computers out altogether, and increase the hitting of the weapons as you advanced in tech. For defense, they could have used a specific defense for each weapon type and had this get better with higher tech.

Darza

I never found Tractor Beams useful at all. I once tried them and found the only benefit from them was when they completely immobilized a ship so I could then capture it. If the ship still had movement, it seemed to have the same defense against beams as if it had full speed. The test was in a game where I had an uncreative race (in a mod), and my hitting was low for beams, so I tried TBs to better the odds. It made no difference, the beams showed no improvement hitting ships slowed by TBs over hitting ships that were not TB'ed first. I concluded this was one, of many, parts of the game where they said something affected something else, but it didn't. The programing did not live up to the description of the programing. A very common problem with earlier games (and more recent ones using only updated old engines).

I don't have any problems defeating fighters or missiles. The only way I can see an opponent using these being a threat is if they have initiative and have ships fast enough they can lay along side mine, fire their missiles and fighters, and have them hit before I get a chance to react. A much worse threat is ships with higher tech jammed to the gills with high level beams. The AI sometimes isn't able to cope against missiles and fighters (especially fighters), but that is because the AI programing is pretty poor at selecting threat levels when choosing targets. Out of curiosity, I once let the computer fight for me, when my fleet of 30 battleships faced an AI one of 99 (max that will display per side in a battle) titans/battleships. We were roughly equal tech. My fleet destroyed about half the AI fleet before being destroyed. Played it over myself and I lost none of my original ships (but the AI destroyed quite of few of the ships I captured, which did not help them at all).

 

[Darza]

Tractors lower the BD of ship, but its not an issue. Issue is immobilize and raid (for AI you can add neutron blasters to capture). Problem with tractors what at turns when they arrive, beam ships doesnt have enough power to have 1:1 shoot-kill ratio, and tractor ship do have. The single real alternative to them is emg (emg ships have 1:1 ratio too, but you can paranoidily have a antimissile defences, and stop them, but there is nothing to stop tractors at all).

You never saw problems with fighters or missiles because you probably never played a game involved optimal strategies (i had read this forum alittle, and as i got you play AI mainly, and in very suboptimal way, so probably thats an answer). Problem with those techs what game have no chance to last long enough to "Higher tech" arrive. At the moment the fighters arrive, there is no tech to stop them yet. They are cheaper than lasers in research and build. In fact in most multiplayer games there is added a special peace rules of some sort, to make game last long enough, so there is need in building colonyships, teching supercomputers etc. Otherwise the only techs you need to bother to research is fighters, deuterium, fusion beam and best drive you can get (usually fusion only). And, problem is what you never can learn how to actually defend against them playing VS AI, it cant fight at all. In case you interested in this game, and want to improve your level, i posted a link already. Dont plan to sound bad, but there is alotta to learn still (in case you're honest in posts here).

upd. I will add an easy example explaining incorrectness of this ""I dont find this useful", "I dont see any problems with" etc" approach. Suppose thats about Guardian, and you say "I dont find EMG DD's useful, i dont see any problem with my usual way of 20 plasma cannons titans to kill a guardian, it always work and im fine (its just example, i dont mean you actually think this way about it)". But. Even if you somehow still dont know how to kill guardian right way, or not belive it, it lead to 2 alternatives: you decide to no bother to learn it, and miss alotta from a game you play, thus making the fact what you actually asking and answering question about it weird, because that should mean what you suppose what some players know game worse than you, and what you can effectively help them get better, while prefer to miss that for yourself; and second alternative - you want to actually check a new data, you trying it on your own, or look some video etc, and realize what indeed, 20 plasma titans simply worse than 8 early destroyers. Because in any actual game 20 titans strategy will lose to 8 DD's. Ofc you can also think "but im playing AI, AI is very easy and dont need to play good from my side". That true, and after you get how to do it right way you can go back to 20 titans, or 1 ship with stasis etc. But, you will know how to do it right, because you didnt missed an opportunity, and if you will need to do it right, you will be able. And also, on general note, approach "i dont need it vs AI, my games are simple" make ANY advice and questions and answers about game pointless, you can get a question, "i cant win that dumb game, coz AI cheat, i play it my usual way, put all into farming for 200 turns, and then start research, but AI cheat and i always lose!". You can try to share your knowledge about optimal way with him, and get answer "i dont care about boring strategies, i like to play it the way i play". But you see, while there is nothing bad in it, there is no point in posting a question then. As you see its pretty wide topic, even one hypotetical example, and there is much more, fighters\tractors is very easy to get, economic could be much harder.

 

[scratchthepitch]

Darza

I have not played a stock game of MOO2 in several years (except a few turns of one somebody posted who was doing story line about it). I play a mod that is quite a bit different from the stock game. You don't seem to have read much of what I wrote, either. Or else you would have known that.

You also don't explain how fighters are so invincible. You really shouldn't go about accusing others of being dunces without explaining why. It's considered rude and also most people will dismiss you outright. As they should. I've shown how they are very vulnerable when used against a player. Same with missiles.

Nor do you adequately explain the usefulness of tractor beams. Every tractor beam uses space something useful could use instead. You don't need to stop a ship to board it, unless you are boarding with no aid of transporters or shuttles. With just tractor beams, you still need something to knock the shields down. Then you need to reduce the marine numbers. If they have better troop tech or security stations (or both ), you need to get their numbers down a lot. It's possible to have a 10-1 marine advantage and still lose a boarding action (seen this happen many times). So you will need marine killing beams. That means neutron blasters till around midgame, a fairly weak beam. So you will need a lot of them.

But if you are playing an uncreative race, and tractor beams is all you got, I'll give you that. Desperation puts even the most impracticable things to use.

We all know the EMG/destroyer vs Guardian. It's a game exploit. So are many of the tactics using fighters or missiles against the AI. I've managed to reduce these exploits some in my mod, but not remove them completely.

Finally:

At the moment the fighters arrive, there is no tech to stop them yet.

Yes there is. You don't use interceptors to intercept fighters? Or missiles?

 

[Darza]

First of all, as i said above - im not trying to be rude. Problem is my bad English, somehow its looks as if im rude, known for me fact, sorry in advance.
Second. You play your mod. Its ok. Bad what you didnt created a real full changelog at some easy to access place, but from post on this forums its clearly visible what this mod created without understandment of game processes. In your mod are still fighters, and tractors, for example. But how could you mod them, if you say you dont see what they are powerful? You wouldnt fix them in result, thats what why i sayd "you need to know a game before mod it". Most easy way to see how fighters are unstoppable is to play short game, same with tractors.

Downloaded your mod, looks like its even less favourable for AI than original, and full of exploits for human players.


UPD. Played it. Thats that im tried to talk about. Finished it at t93 from prewarp (huge 7 ai impossible) without any trying to optimize speed. You just fly, grab insane leaders in process, who give you insane tech (i found felina at quite late turn, and you can find her on a first planet, but all other free leaders are insane aswell, you just do not reasearch and have all the tech in result). No point of using any weapons beside fighters at all. Game is way more easy even than classic moo2. With good start speed reslt there could be really insane, as you even doesnt bother for command points (they are not exist, i had 10 battleships and positive balance). Race picks also clearly show what you need to know how they work (-BC cost cheaper than -res, and -BC is worst pick in game, and you give it to AI races). In case you really interested, i could do more detail explanation, by now this mod just show what you indeed better learn a game alittle, after you add a game knowledge to your creativity and modding skill, result can be very good.

UPD2. Oh no, i dont know how i missed it. Race what do 63 prod on first turn, you serious? To play race with 63 prod versus lame AI races killed with -bc? And find robominers with leader at planet later? Really man, join irc, there alotta people who can make you good at game really fast.

 

[scratchthepitch]

Darza

Thanks for the response. I think we are straying too far from what Gidoza was intending with this thread, and I don't want to hijack it. So I will answer you more specifically on the thread for my mod.

 

[Darza]

Yes, sorry man, thats my fault too, you answered it there, and i followed, its somewhat offtopic indeed.

 

[Gidoza]

Hello there, I'm back.

When it comes to Interceptors, I'll comment that I've only found them to be threatening in the earliest of the early game. Yes, Interceptors DO crack out impressive damage right off the bat, but the instant ENV Fusion Beams come around, Interceptors in my experience become virtually useless. I've also experimented with having wimpy ships armed to the teeth with PD Mass Drivers right off the bat, and they do an impressive job of knocking out both Interceptors and Missiles.

Of course, I LOVE using Interceptors. They're great fun, as are Bombers and Heavy Fighters, although Bombers and HF are impractical because of their high tech level. But just because these are useful against computer opponents does not make it so against human players. I'll have to side with scratch on certain things: depending on the kind of Beam Attack the opponent has (and it doesn't always have to be much: even a +20 racial pick is majorly significant), Interceptors and Missiles can sometimes be useless unless one flies one's ship right on top of the opponent and launches the Missiles/Interceptors there, when the opponent has no opportunity to shoot them down before they hit.

Secondly, I hope you realize what I did with the way I set up my tech in my tree. I acknowledge that Interceptors can be extremely powerful. That's why I put Fighter Bays alongside Spaceport and Robotic Factories, and took Automated Factories out of the question until later, and then weakened beams' effects on Interceptors. There is an internal logic to this situation: the following happens...

A player with Fighter Bays will have an impressive weapon, BUT such a player lacks Spaceport/Robotic Factories, and thus has inferior production and money, making it difficult to build and support the very ship that has the impressive weapon in the first place. Thus, players that opt not to pick fighter bays can build more ships or what have you, but must rely on different kinds of weaponry for their victory. You cannot just go ahead and say that the player using Fighter Bays will run away with the game, because the choice at that tech level specifically prevents that!

Nevertheless, now we're getting into the kind of discussion I was hoping for, so I thank you.

 

[Darza]

Sadly player who will get fighters there essentially will run with a game. Thats the point. If you rise a cost for economic tech - you making them even more useless than in classic game (and in classic game you dont need no autofactory or rlab to win AI impossible already). You simply dont realize simple thing, by the moment you will have enveloped fusions etc you will be dead already, because fighter ships will be operational long time ago. And if you decide to tech to weapon to stop them - you simply dont have a ship to put your tech into it. Mistake is what you trying to see weapon's power only compared to other weapons without time scale. Ofc many weapons way more powerful than interceptors by itself, but we talking about real game. And in real game you simply have no need to do further weapons research if you have interceptors, it will hurt you in economic term. IF you will compare spaceport and robofac to fighters, you will see - both are buildings. They need time to make a profit. And all the result of this profit will be building some other ship with other weapons much later in game. And if you will simply build a fighters fleet outright - you will win without need in future economic development at all. So basically you just build that fleet outright, and it pay for itself very fast, unlike buildings. You know, you need only one ship, max 2 to win all the game, its not so much prod needed.