A Few "Not To" for Building Addicts.

[RIcs]

Level: Monarch. Huge map. Epic Speed.

Say with me: "I'm a builder, I have problems."
Or Sing : "Bob the builder, CAN WE FIX IT ? "

I guess the point have been made in other thread, but usually a bit vage.

So, why not put up some simple words to make that point.

Sharing my recent "discovery" (which may be studied a lot in the past in the forum, that we don't check anymore.)

---- THINGS DON'T GET BUILT ----

1. EVERYTHING x5

Don't try to build everything.... You will never keep up with the new buildings provided.

2. MARKETs x3

Don't build, if you have only 10 commerce.
(I don't bother until for at least 40~50 commerce.)

3. TEMPLEs x4

Don't build, if your city is fairly happy. So as Catheral... it's for cultural and religious people, not builder.

4. ROADs x3

Don't build, unless for connection.

5. COURTHOUSEs x2

Don't build, only -4 gold maintainence... you get only 2 gold out of that, you got better things to do.

Mid Game.

5. LIBRARies x4

Don't build, you got 8 already. So as Universities. Count the commerce and science output before you build.

6. BANKs x4

Don't Build, you got 8 already. And only 30 commerce for that city you click, and running always 80% science slider... build somewhere else, do something else.

7. LIGHTHOUSEs x4

Don't build, you got 4 fishes, and 1 carb? Ok, build it. (still, way too many food.)

8. HABOURs x2

I build it, but don't know why...... ok, I got +4, +4, +5 from trade route.

9. Walls, and Castles.

For one extra trade route ? for bombarment protection? give me a good reason.

10. WHAT COMPUTER RECOMMENDED ? x5

Built what Advised to built? This is the one I definately NOT going to build. It's trying to spoil you, can't you see, you are up against it.

--------------

Oh, you're running a SE, Specialists Economies? Okies, built everything, you got over that builder addicts already.

Running Cottages? Stick with NOT-TO-BUILD

 

[frob2900]

Youre completely wrong about Courthouses. For any kind of realistic size empire they are very important. Ignoring them is crazy. Ignoring them if you have the organized trait is just criminal.

 

[RIcs]

Yes, you are right, just count the gold before you build it.

then, you may want a market before that, a sp merchant sometimes makes more than that.

and then, you may want a forge and factory before that.

and then, you finally can get that courthouse... but a forbidden palace already built next to it.... so you can forget about it.

just count the gold.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Running Cottages? Stick with NOT-TO-BUILD

Hmm - I'm not sure if this is aimed at "don't be a builder any more" or "be more efficient at it".

For players who enjoy the builder style of play, I'd vary from these suggestions quite a bit. Because let's face it, if you never produce any buildings, your Builder's Club membership is going to get revoked.

The point I would raise, though, is that you don't have to be in a hurry for a lot of these things.

Beyond that, I'd argue in favor of temples - a "fairly happy" city is a city that is growing too slowly. Fix that instead, and get the temple built.

On the other hand, if the goal is to stop being a builder: all a city needs is a granary, a barracks, and a ceaseless effort to improve morale .

 

[RIcs]

Voice,
Ummm ... I guess I wanna say... The "Un-nesscesity" to build something. (and sounds like rehab.)
all I heard is building sth is good for sth, building something is good good good. but hardly one pin point the down side of it. When once realised that, it's a more flexible game that I have.

thanks for temple advice, I jot that down, will help my future games ^_^.

 

[Elrohir]

@RIcs: No.

 

[thefais]

Completely disagree with roads. Sure, they should be low on the list, but they're essential if you plan on having any sort of early/late/at any point of the game war. Why take 5 turns to get units between cities when you can take 2.

 

[Sisiutil]

I'm afraid I disagree with most of these points. Generally, you're right, you don't want to build everything in every city; and yes, you should examine the city's specifics before making a building choice. But if any of these buildings are cheap because of your leader's traits, it makes sense to build them. Specifically:

• Markets: My threshold is to have the city producing at least 4 GPT, preferably 10. Otherwise, if the city really needs the happiness boost, it builds one. Markets are expensive early in the game but pay off in the long run. Ditto for Banks and Grocers.
• Temples: If you're spiritual, what the heck, it's a cheap happy and border-popper. Combine them with the Spiral Minaret and University of Sankore and you've got a really good synergy going.
• Roads: I love roads! In the early game, they're valuable for barb-whomping. Later, they're vital for moving units to the front or a city under siege ASAP, and to get my workers working on a tile improvement faster.
• Courthouses: essential if you're warmongering in the early/mid-game, as is the Forbidden Palace, which requires 8 courthouses IIRC.
• Libraries and Universities: Libraries are another good early border-popping building. Yes, you only want to build them in cities where there is enough research to get something back--but some of that is anticipation as well.
• Lighthouses: a very good cheap building! You always need more food--lighthouses often mean you can run more specialists, and they make coast/ocean tiles useful.
• Harbours: like Grocers, good for the health boost, and the trade route increase is a nice bonus. I prefer them to buildings like aqueducts which only increase health.
• Walls and castles--okay, I'm with ya there. I rarely build walls, and I have yet to build a single castle.

 

[KMadCandy]

if i'm running mercantilism and still founding cities, i like to build temples early in the new cities, way way before they run into happiness issues. that way their specialist can be a priest to get them 2 hammers (vs one for citizen specialist) to build other buildings faster. then again if you're not trying to build many buildings at all, that'd be kind of silly.

 

[lilnev]

My rule of thumb: don't build anything besides monuments (where needed), barracks, granaries, and perhaps a few libraries before clobbering at least one neighbor. There may be a few exceptions (sometimes a lighthouse; if I manage to build a lot of cities peacefully maybe courthouses; if war is delayed until catapults because I have no metal then maybe a temple), but generally I feel it's necessary to fight first to secure enough land. Then I can build forges, courthouses, maybe even some happiness/health buildings. I generally won't build universities, aquaducts, or banks until I'm done warring for the game.

And roads are a separate issue, as they require worker-turns, not hammers in the production queue. I'm generally a fan of having enough workers that I never need to use an unimproved tile, and almost all of my movement is on roads. Workers are cheap, each worker can improve many tiles, and those improvements last forever.

peace,
lilnev

 

[Mr. Civtastic]

People say you shouldnt build everything in every city. I think thats more or less true, but there are plenty of exceptions.

1. Money buildings: Grocers and Markets can provide health and happiness. If you need one or both and youve used up other cheaper solutions (aqaducts, temples) and you cant trade for any more resources then these are the next best solutions. Banks are needed for Wall street...if you have eight cities and you want wall street, that city with 2 commerce is getting a bank.

Otherwise no banks. If I have a city with low commerce AND no problems with health and happiness, then they arent getting a market or grocer.

2. Culture buildings: If I have Sankore, temples with my state religion are coming up almost everywhere. If Im spiritual and a temple is only four turns...why not? If I want to spam missionaries to make me money but I dont want to use my production cities...I'll toss a monastary in a small city to be my missionary city. Plus that 10% research certainly doesnt hurt.

Theaters can provide happiness, plus you need 7 for the globe theater. Just like with banks...if I have only 7 cities, everyone is getting a theater. Globe theater can push a food-heavy city into huge populations without "its too crowded!" ruining everything...plus it helps to make a great whip/draft city.

I wont build culture buildings if I dont need the culture...like a city in my core. I'll hold off on temples until I need the happiness, if ever. Monastaries depend on if the city has any beakers at all, or if I need the culture.

3. Production buildings: Forges= Ironworks...you get the picture. If Im short a couple, then Im building them. Plus forges provide some of the hard-to-get ge points, so one is probably getting built in a city that Im trying to farm gp with.

I'll stop with forges after I have Ironworks, and if the city has no hammers.Sometimes whipping a city is much better production then building something.

4.Research cities: Libraries go in almost all my cities because not just because of the research, but also for the culture and 2 gs specialists. Plus Im going to want Universites asap for Oxford.

The ones I'll be more selective on are Observatories,labs, and universites after I have Oxford. Sometimes I'll build the library and univeristy for culture in a beaker-poor city, but thats only if its on the front of a border culture war. If the city is making no beakers and you dont need the culture, then save the hammers on these relatively expensive buildings.

5. Random: Lighthouses, harbors, courthoues...I see no reason why they shouldnt be in every city. More money and more food...two things that only help. Plus courthouses gets Forbidden palace.

The main buildings that you can skip on are military if you are trying to be peaceful...your power score isnt affected by promotions, so dont build barracks. Plus its pointless to builb barracks in cities that wont build troops...unless you are whipping them instead. Stables should only be built in a couple cities...the cities that would built mounted units. But I wont build a stable with every barracks...some cities will focus on melee/gunpowder units, they dont need a stable at all.

Jails arent needed in smaller cities, drydocks arent needed in any city that isnt building a ship, I almost always prefer a unit for defense over walls, castles are nice but not always worth the walls prereq, bunkers...yeah right.


For me, most buildings will be built in most of my cities. The key is build only what you need in that city at that time. Dont build the grocer in a city that has no money and no health problems...but when you see the unhealthy face, you build it. Dont build a library in the city with no beakers...but if enemy culture is pushing on it, build it. Dont build the theater in your capital...until you have happiness problems there.

 

[50_dollar_bag]

Regarding Courthouses: I'll build them in every city except for my capital, population and number of cities affects the maintenance paid for each city, so as you start capturing or founding cities that city that had 2 maintenace now has 5 and that will keep climbing. Plus chuck in a high maintenance civic like organized religion and bereaucracy, courthouses are extremely valuable.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Plus chuck in a high maintenance civic like organized religion and bereaucracy, courthouses are extremely valuable.

Huh? Building courthouses doesn't make you Organized.

 

[dar]

He's referring to the organised religion civic, which is damn expensive upkeep-wise.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

He's referring to the organised religion civic, which is damn expensive upkeep-wise.

He's referring to civic upkeep costs, which are not changed by the presence or absence of a courthouse in any city.

The civic upkeep is a civ wide expense, like military upkeep. Courthouse only impacts the upkeep local to the city where it is built.

Or I'm wrong. Always possible when I'm not citing references.

(The Organized trait does reduce civic upkeep. It also offers cheap courthouses. Glibly, one might say that being organized makes you build courthouses, but building courthouses doesn't make you organized. Perhaps only funny if you are the one telling the joke.)

 

[paperchase417]

this thread is enlightening. I'm gonna go put what I've learned to practice.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

The organized trait is nice not because of the cheaper courthouses, but because in the late game, civic upkeep is what kills you, not maintenance costs. And unlike popular perception, courthouses are actually very powerful early game, because every gold piece you scrap off means one more unit or another turn shaved off getting that next tech. 4GPT a turn is a lot of beakers saved. You might think building more towns will do, but heck no, you got hapiness limitations from technology, and you want all your citizens working mines and pumping out units anyway

Here's my building strateg: I rarely buld much besides courthouses and barracks. Lighthouse if there's lots of water tiles or I need early commerce now. Oracle for code of laws and Confucism, plus a GP farm of great library, national epic and globe theatre (if I get around to all those theatres, rather than just deciding to get those GP's now). I try to avoid the obliesk when by founding cities with useful tiles within the initial 9 squares, but that's not always possible. I also build the granary if there are absolutely no hills anywhere and I need to whip like crazy.

Late game: RAILROADS!!!!! Sometimes jails, possibly airport if game lasts that long, for airlifting units to a beachhead for continental invasions. Wonders that I go for fun: Stonehenge and Hanging Gardens if there are lots of jungle for peaceful expansion, Pentagon, Three Gorges Dam, Space Elevator (and laboratories to go along with it). Pyramids are too expensive for building, go capture it instead, if it's close by and you're desperate.

 

[Winston Hughes]

To RIcs: Good points. A sound grasp of the build-obsessed mindset, and some useful suggestions for any unreformed buildoholic to reflect upon.

To Everyone Else: Many valid points made. But, as I understand it, the main thrust of RIcs' advice seems to have been missed somewhat: don't just build something for the sake of it, or because that's what you usually build, or because it looks useful at first glance.

Do (or will) your maintenence costs make that courthouse necessary? Do you need the health/happiness bonus (or the trade bonus/priest) from that harbour/temple? etc. etc. These are exactly the kinds of questions you have to ask yourself.

Imo, the best way to overcome a build-dependency is to consider:
(1) What are you building it for?
(2) What will its actual effects be? Will you really benefit?
(3) What is the opportunity cost of building it? What could you build instead?
(4) Are you slowing city growth, expansion and/or research for the sake of a few extra hammers? If so, is this a worthwhile trade-off?

Plan ahead and weigh up the cost/value of each build to both your grand strategy and your more immediate needs. If it serves neither, or there is something more useful you could build instead (including gold, research or culture), then you shouldn't be building it.

(Credit goes to aelf and the various EMC commentators for helping me to learn these valuable lessons).

One final thing. Be careful that you don't turn yourself from a buildoholic into a buildophobic. To paraphrase the esteemed Dr. Jiggle, there are very many economic problems that a few axemen can't solve.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Oh, and one more thing: don't build wonders just because it looks like it will have a cool effect. Most of them suck.

 

[Elandal]

But they're shiny.. They make me look cool, like Elvis standing on the top of the Pyramids