A few questions

[Zulu]

What do you guys think of building the first 4-5 cities right next to each other...with these cities cranking out units and settlers and remaining small which spurts the rest of your growth with large and populated cities?

Also, when do you guys build the SSC? Do you guys look for a perfect location or will a mediocre location do OK? I ask because it usually takes me a great deal of turns to find 4 good specials to build the SSC. By then the AI is already building the collusus elsewhere!

Depending on your style of play do you have a criteria as to when things should be done? Seems like early on I don't get much of an edge on the AI... is this normal? [In the BC era primarily].

BTW, this just occured to me. Would it be productive to have all your cities send food caravans to the SSC so that it grows insanely large?? This might be extremely powerful.

Anyway, just a few random questions. Hopefully someone will take the time to answer one or two of them

Cheers,

-ZUlu

 

[cliff]

The best distance between cities is 3 or 4 squares apart so that they just don't overlap. It is good to connect your cities with roads. When you build a settler, let it build a road to where it will settle. I will only build cities closer to each other if there is no useful terrain nearby. I prefer city overlapping to founding cities on poor terrain or too far away from other cities.

I will build the SSC as soon as possible. I let my first two cities build settlers and found new cities. If one of the four cities I now have has one or two trade specials and grassland/plains/river/ocean to work, I will choose it as my SSC. If none of these cities have good terrain I will found the SSC later but I will usually accept a city site that is OK but not ideal rather then go searching for the perfect spot for ages.

When it comes to that food caravan thing, I would say that 10 or so turns of republic with celebrations in SSC is a better way to make this city grow. Use your food caravans to build Shakespeare's Theatre instead and you will have no trouble celebrating.

I like to get that SSC big as fast as possible, that's my top priority. When things go my way it will be size 20+ in 1AD but that doesn't always happen.

 

[Zulu]

Hi Cliff,

But you waste valuable time by spacing them out. You're limiting the ultimate potential of those initial cities but by building them ICS style you can progress a lot faster initially... no?

Sounds like a good compromise...that's what I'll start doing then. How many science beakers do you usually get out of your SSC at various times?

Hmm... I'm mistaken. I thought food caravans permanantly gave you more food. I guess it's pretty pointless in this event. The reason why I brought it up is that you could then turn all the workers in the SSC to science workers... [I see now that it won't work though]

How many cities do you usually build in total?

-Zulu

 

[cliff]

Hi!

What's considered progress? You can have a large number of cities earlier if you build them closer but is that good or bad? Too many cities means big unhappiness problems. You desperately need to build Mike's early for this to work. I like to focus on my SSC, and the distraction of having to pile up 8 useful caravans for Mike's at an early stage (say in the BC's) is not what I am looking for. Those caravans could have been better used to establish trade routes. Don't get me wrong, Mike is a good wonder, maybe even the best wonder in the game, but it is also expensive. Therefore, don't build it before you can afford to do so. Building to many cities forces you to build it too early.

The Hanging Gardens is a wonder I will consider building early; it costs half as much as Mike and helps with celebrations in your SSC (yes, build it there, always).

Back to progression... why do you want many cities? I want many cities for caravan production. The SSC needs several wonders and you need to establish trade routes. Cities with only jungle and plains nearby are not useful for anything in the early game. I like to have some grassland squares and some forest squares that can be used by small cities. Now they can both grow and produce stuff. One city founded in a good spot can do what 3 poor cities can do. Bare this in mind when you talk about progress. Those cities in poor places or with overlaps need more land improvement to be as efficient as "normal" small cities. That means you have to build an extra settler early in the game which would not have been necessary otherwise.

Science beakers... when I reach size 15-20 I will get 200+ beakers with library, university, colossus and copernicus + trade routes. This is the point when the SSC really makes a big difference. Add some scientists and newton and you get 300-400 beakers in the mid-game. A size 8 city with a library will only have 40 or so beakers. At this stage I will preferrably look otherwise for science. To trade with the ai and to deliver caravans is a good idea. Later in the game you could get over 1000 beakers from the SSC.

I don't like the riot factor in the early game so I try to not exceed the maximum number of cities for the map size and government type I am using. For despotism, small map, the limit is 4 cities. Monarchy small map- 6 cities. Republic small map - 8 cities. If I recall correctly. If you build more cities you need to take care of the happiness problems which slows you down. If I build the Gardens, I will build more cities. Perhaps 10-12 for a late BC Monarchy/Republic (small map) and 15-20 on a large map.

 

[Zulu]

Small cities don't cause much unhappiness and are a good way to jump start growth [of other cities] as you don't need to worry about any improvements.

I think I'll try your approach in my next few games... fewer but far better developed cities.

Ony of my concerns is wanting to go to Democracy very early but I still need settlers to work the land [they require 2 food support under democracy which is hasstle].

BTW, I forgot to ask but I assume you play on Deity? I've finally moved up to Emperor with pretty good success. I usually build ICS style and conquer all game and I've recently played pretty well with a SSC. I find it hard to get going tho...

One of my main problems is that the AI never wants to wants to trade maps which severely hinders my trading potential. Any way I can remedy this?

And speaking of the SSC...I tried an OCC game on Deity and failed miserably. I died in 550 BC through storms of elephants even though things seemed to be going well. The AI just never wants to pay tribute or share maps!

Cheers,

-Zulu

 

[cliff]

Yes, I always play on deity.

I let the other cities except the SSC stay small until I can afford som city improvements. Some cities get temples early but apart from that I don't build any city improvements. Size 3 is a good city size; when you switch to republic/democracy you can celebrate right away (with Mike) and you can also have a production of 5 shields, at least in monarchy. To keep the cities from revolting in republic you need either a temple or HG and some luxuries. A city that is about to grow too big builds a settler. The first priority for him is to build roads and found new cities. When you have enough cities you should move him to the SSC and start improving the land there.

I like to found cities on grassland as a preparation for republic 2 food settlers. That lets you have one surplus food without any irrigation provided that you use only 2 food squares, which means grassland or specials. Cities with too few 2 food squares within reach are built near the ocean so that they can have a harbor. I often build a harbor as the first city improvement.

I don't irrigate any squares except outside the SSC early in the game. It's too time consuming so I leave that until I have engineers.

About diplomacy... the ai:s are often sour the first time you contact them and the first goal is to cheer them up. I often give away technology to get them in a better mood. To trade maps, both of you must have map making and they need to be at least cordial. If you want tributes from the ai, they must be afraid of you. Having many cities or many military units will scare them. An alternative to tributes is gifts from allies.

OCC is a somewhat different story. Give away more techs and try to form alliances with as many ai players as you can. You should not go to war in OCC. Ask your allies for gifts. You need money to rush build caravans. Build caravans and then more caravans. Use them for wonder building and space ship parts.

 

[ElephantU]

After the City Summary page (F1), your second stop EVERY TURN should be the Foreign Advisor page (F3). If you want to use and abuse the AI civs, you need to pay attention to their attitudes toward you, and if you want to manage your own research costs you need to check your power rating and number of techs and compare it to your Key Civ. Once you both have Maps the AI will trade maps and give tribute if they are Worshipful, sometimes Enthusiastic, rarely Cordial. Once you get embassies or MarcoPolo you can see what they are researching and what they have that you dont. If they are researching something you have, give it to them and then ask for tribute. They will then switch to researching something else that you dont have, which you can then trade for. If they are researching something you dont want them to get yet, give them other techs to slow them down. Each time you offer a gift you get the choice of two of your existing techs, so you can always "protect" one tech. Each time you ask for tribute their attitude toward you will probably slip a notch, so be ready to "butter them up" with a tech gift.

Your discussion with Cliff is sort of mashing ICS with Perfectionist styles of play. I gather you have been experimenting with ICS; working with big cities is a whole different set of priorities. To get big you need food, which means lots of grass or lots of irrigating and deforesting (or a Harbor if there is lots of water). To keep the cities content you need some luxuries, which means trade arrows and city improvements like MarketPlace and Bank, and trade routes. You need to plan this all out and have a good start on it before moving to Republic or Democracy. Otherwise the penalty regarding your supported military units will be too much of a tradeoff to make it worth doing.

In OCC you need to give everything away as soon as you have built the appropriate Wonder, stockpile caravans, and accept that your Power Rating will probably end up around Pathetic. With alliances and gifts you can usually stay out of war. You are trying to get off the planet before anyone else, not be Supreme or wipe them out. You also need to aggressively "troll" for Barb units that you can bribe overseas. You can amass quite an army of unsupported units that way.