A list of suggestions from a long-time player

Discussion in 'Civ4Col - We The People' started by mmun, May 1, 2020.

  1. mmun

    mmun Chieftain

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    Hi, I made an account to comment on the new happiness feature, and I realized that I had a few more things to add on other topics. Maybe some of it was suggested before. I'm so happy you guys are keeping this game alive. I'm an economist by education and this mod scratches that itch like nothing else out there :)

    Balance
    • Generation of money from culture seems quite weak in comparison to domestic markets.
    • Storms are underpowered, they should blow ships off course, dash them against the coast, even kill them
    • I love "Learning by Doing" but it's too strong compared to education in the early game. The difference between stuffing my colonists in school and letting them work for 20 turns is the production generated in those 20 turns, especially in regards to food where you have a "compound interest" effect on top
    • Maybe more non-colonist units could be made buildable? Early game for Settler Militia, but you could have a building allowing i.e. Ranger production. Or Native Mercenary for a colony with a native settlement with a mission or trading post within range? Often I don't take founding fathers buffing non-colonist units because I can't acquire them.
    Production and professions
    • Salt could give a small bonus to fishermen, salting being a common method of preserving fish
    • The price of spices seems low, after all this was the whole point of sailing to the Americas.
    • Dyed cloth production: I think wool cloth should also be allowed as an input. Maybe even sailcloth. Alternatively you could drop wool cloth as a unique good and allow cloth production from wool.
    • You should be able to slaughter horses for food.
    • A "don't butcher below 100" option would save some micro-management
    • Preachers should get a small bonus to bell production
    • Butchers should get a small bonus to health production
    • Hemp planters and trappers should be available in Europe
    • Stone does not feel rewarding at all, it's a bother to produce and ship around since you need stonecutters and quarries for maximum efficiency. I usually end up just buying it either from Europe or rushing the building.
    • Imports should be allowed even if warehouses are full. Or there should be a toggle.
    Misc
    • A huge immersion-breaker is when you have a full warehouse and rush a building, only for you to lose x numbers of goods and not be able to build the building that turn. A solution could be to make goods bought for rushing buildings immune to this effect for a little while.
    • Maybe the "cannot continue construction" could be replaced by a warning the turn before hammer completion so you don't lose a turn of hammers.
    • Ship wreckage could appear over time instead of immediately, maybe even based on naval battles
    • Coconut trees appearing on hills is a bit of a dead end
    • Would it be possible to show buildings with missing prerequisites? I.e. Central Customs Authority when you only have one Customs House.
    • Maybe subdivide Ship of the Line? Into i.e. two, three and four-decker or by number of guns. It would be really cool to build really huge ships.
    • The import/export UI is a little inadequate with all the new goods in the mod.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2020
    Your_ardent_admirer and pauldst like this.
  2. Tugboatspotter

    Tugboatspotter Warlord

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    A few responses to your ideas:

    Balance:

    Storms: They would have to be a new kind of storm. Currently they are just a square to be avoided - your suggestion would involve a new concept.

    Learning by doing: 20 turns is not that much in the long run. I normally upgrade to college straight away in my main city so it is even less. You can't rely on learning by doing - sometimes you will be unlucky.

    Production and professions:

    Salt: If it isn't needed and doesn't improve the game (or complicates for little return) then best keep it simple.

    Dyed cloth: This has been discussed before and is a valid idea, but it is not a planned feature as far as I know.

    Preachers/Butchers: Same as salt - won't improve the game.

    Stone: It depends on the map. It doesn't need to be rewarding. It can just be convenient if you start quarrying early.

    Misc:

    Instant build works fine. It is a pay off.

    Ship wreckage: I think it has been considered and is not doable or worthwhile.
     
  3. mmun

    mmun Chieftain

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    Storms: Yes, I understand that. But I think the sea feels too safe currently. Atlantic storms are terrifying.
    Learning by doing: Yes, you can be unlucky but with fishermen you can just pile them up and some will eventually become experts. The "interest" on food makes it quite powerful.
    Salt: Salted fish was hugely economically important in certain regions and time periods. Food preservation was a big issue before refrigeration, but spoilage is not really a thing in the game. You could represent it in a variety of ways, some more interesting game-wise than others.
     
  4. ConjurerDragon

    ConjurerDragon King Supporter

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    In another thread spoilage of food had already been suggested. I think the best argument is that there is no "spoilage" of people, so a spoilage of food does not make sense either. Just consider it: if you are lucky the two guys from the starting ship will live happily on for 300 years and work in your cities - realistic?

    No, not at all and much more important than taking a small percentage from produced food to set a tiny brake on generating new settlers from food.

    However I do like it that, simplified, way. Not only because it had been like that in the original colonization, but because I would find it no fun, if my guys suddenly would start to die after at most 30 years as the normal working life span of the time.

    Colonization is no real-life simulation but a game that is simplified for fun in many aspects. And R&R and WtP have already added to the vanilla game in a lot of ways that make the game have more options - however nothing enables you to play longer than 300 turns with full effects so there is a limit to how much you can require the player to pay attention to before it becomes tedious.
     
  5. ConjurerDragon

    ConjurerDragon King Supporter

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    Culture represents how much your own people have taken control of the squares around your city - the more your own people are in control the more customers do visit the inns. It´s an approximation and a simplification but one that makes sense.

    There are mods that do more with the weather. One was "FaireWeather" if I remember that right, that you could try. However those storms, the more and larger they would be would take calculation time.

    The game runs for 300 years. Learning by doing gives aspecialty on average in 20 turns - or 20 years doing that one job. If you had done your job for 20 years (or even 10) you would be considered an expert in it. Balance is not only between Learning by doing and schools, but with learning from Natives too - if a native village has farmers and is nearby it makes learning by doing for farmers immediately obsolete...

    Rangers are a gun-powder unit. At the start of the game everyone should stick to blades, bows or simple firstgeneration arquebuses. Units with muskets or rifles should be only available after a century has passed/and age has changed.

    Which is as true for meat, which was not only dryed but salted too for preservation. So give the same bonus to hunters too? Or simply assume that they have a sufficient local supply to do their job and see it as included in the amount they catch.

    The price of spices was extremely high ( to the point that some spices were weighed up in gold) due to the first Mamluk and later Ottoman monopoly on the end points of the silk road and the spice trade AND the additional profits mostly the venetians added on that transporting the spices from the Levante along their colony network (Cyprus, Crete, up the Adria) to Venice where e.g. german merchants could buy them from and then transport them across the Alps through the High Middle Age.

    Portugal was first profiting from the newfound seaway around Africa and their shipping route to the Indies and bringing in bulk loads of spices with huge profits, but already there the price had become lower and was nowhere near "weighed up with gold".

    And after that colonization of the Americas and spices found and cultivated there added more supply - so sold in bulk it should be profitable. But the times of the famous riches in spices that were made by the Venetians of the portuguese when they had the monopoly for going around Africa are already over.

    Realistically, sure that would be possible. But practically? Hell, no. This is not the Grande Armee slaughtering it´s horses on the way back from Moscow but colonies who would have far better uses of horses than slaughtering them - Scouts, Cavalry, fast Carriages, or as a valuable trading good to equip native allies, even as a better and faster way to plow as compared to before with Oxen. Even selling horses and buying food from the profit would normally already be better than slaughtering the horses (as we have no different qualities of "horses" in the game, where in the real world a heavy horse that draws a plow would not be the same as a light horse for a scout).

    And it would be completely ahistorical. Realistically in the colonies noone, nowhere was able to build a ship of the Line, Frigates at most until after the war of 1812. Certainly not from 1492 to 1792.
     
  6. mmun

    mmun Chieftain

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  7. mmun

    mmun Chieftain

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    I don't think spoilage alone is an interesting mechanic, it would have to be coupled with better starvation mechanics, seasonal changes in food availability, biome (hot/wet: lots of food, quick spoilage, cold/dry less food, slow spoilage) etc. And becomes a really big task if done properly. So probably not within scope :)
     
  8. Swarbs

    Swarbs Emperor

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    That's intentional and correct imo - money from culture is passive and happens automatically, whereas the domestic market must be served with goods to make money. Therefore the rewards from managing domestic markets should be higher.

    Not necessarily - learning by doing is reliant on RNG, and you could have a unit work at a profession for 100 turns without ever becoming an expert. Education is very valuable imo, particularly once you have developed one or two colonies with good food and all the professions so you can use those as education centres to send carpenters etc to other colonies.

    That's because the 'spices' in this mod are ground chili peppers, rather than the more valuable saffron, turmeric etc from Asia. They sailed to America in search of spices, but never actually found or produced the most valuable ones there during the colonial period.

    I agree with all this.

    Disagree here - I set up stone quarries fairly rapidly in my colonies with mountains to stockpile stone in advance. If you can get it done quickly and well then it saves you a fortune in buying stone and rushing costs, particularly when you get to higher level buildings like universities and bastions.

    In the long term, yes, but in the short term a farmer can be productive with coconut trees on hills, at least until you can spare pioneers to get farms ready. It's better than nothing, a bit like deer in light forests.[/QUOTE]
     
  9. PPanda0421

    PPanda0421 Chieftain

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    Sorry but I disagree with your disagreement :). Usually when there is a stone resource there is also an ore resource on the same tile. You need to build a quarry to extract the most stone and you also need a stonecutter to get that stone. Better to build a normal mine and hire an ore miner to extract ore. Ore is much more useful in the long run. You'll always need tools and eventually will need guns to fight in any type of war. Also, you can turn ore into tools/swords/guns/cannons all of which sells for more than it costs to buy the same amount of stone. In other words, convert ore->tools->cannons which normally you sell for 14+ per cannon. Stone usually costs around 5-6 to buy but is generally much cheaper than cannons.

    So in short, better to stockpile ore as it is more useful and buy stone instead.
     
  10. Tugboatspotter

    Tugboatspotter Warlord

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    Not usually - there always is because it is a mountain. Do you think it is a good idea to favor ore over stone even on a stone bonus tile?

    No. You need to adapt and take advantage of your situation. Your logic doesn't work if, for example, you get a stone worker on the dock and have a stone resource. There is strategic choices based on circumstances - not absolutes.
     
  11. PPanda0421

    PPanda0421 Chieftain

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    I haven't seen all possible combination of tiles so thats why I said 'usually.' If it is always certain to contain ore then go for ore. However, if you have enough ore stored or have multiple cities that mine ore than I'd go harvesting stone. Yes, you'll be using ore/tools MUCH earlier than you'll be using stone. Like I said ore is much
    important early on and you can always buy stone with the money you make by selling the processed ore goods.

    Again I said ore is much more useful in the long run. Buildings that require stone are way down the line. You'll be needing tools earlier and more often than you'll be needing stone. You'll eventually need to make tools/muskets/swords/cannons/ships to win the WOI or win battles against the other AI.
    You will absolutely fight in WOI unless you turn on peaceful mode or something to that effect.

    I'm looking at the big picture/long run, not just a 'circumstance'. If you read Swarb's reply you'd also see he was talking about down the line - about saving money and stockpiling for the higher level buildings.

    You play how you like to play. I'm just saying that ore is WAY more important to mine/stockpile than stone. If you have enough ore, then go ahead and extract/stockpile stone.
     
  12. Swarbs

    Swarbs Emperor

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    Well then I disagree with your disagreement of my disagreement ;)

    I suppose we should clarify which version we are talking about here - I play with the 2-tile radius, so eventually all colonies will be able to work 24 tiles. In this case, the chances of having a colony with only one ore resource is vanishingly small, particularly with the Faireweather map generator. Almost every mountain is surrounded by hills, so you can easily get ore in 99% of locations where you can get stone. With a 1-tile radius I agree it would be different.

    In the 2-tile case, there is no point stockpiling ore to the point that you will never be able to use it - a single expert miner with a bonus resource or river will be able to produce enough for two expert blacksmiths, and they in turn can produce enough for blades, tools and guns to make, stockpile and sell. Then you will still have a mountain that you can use for stone production.

    With regards to the economics, stone is cheaper than cannons, but then lumber is cheaper than cigars and cloth. That doesn't mean it is a good strategy to chop all forests and plant tobacco and cotton. You have to consider the time spent sending ships and wagons back and forth to buy stone and not being able to transport other goods and units at the same time, and the potential for delays to important buildings if you run out of stone.

    Also, I should point out that I never ever use the rush button to buy stone and tools, as I personally consider that to be an outright cheat!
     
  13. PPanda0421

    PPanda0421 Chieftain

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    Yes, looks like we different gameplay styles. No one is actually wrong since we all have different worlds and different strategies. The reason why I said I disagreed is because you explicitly said it in your original reply :)
    I also play with 2-tile radius and I still prefer to stockpile ore over stockpiling stone. Extra ore can always be transferred to other cities (that don't have ore tiles) for processing.

    Regarding economics, at higher levels the blacksmith (eg great tool workshop) and higher level gunsmith buildings increase their production by a huge amount. So that 36 ore your ore miners are mining can be turned into 60+ tools *and* 60+ guns (don't know exact numbers but I've seen in it game). Whereas when you mine 36 stone, that's it you get 36 stone. So, at the minimum 36 ore can be left as 36 ore or turned into any combination of tools/swords/guns/cannons all of which can be sold for a profit. That money can then be used to buy stone or whatever else you need. Transport is not really an issue in WTP. There are many options and building plastered roads makes item transport very easy. For sea transport build/buy ships with big capacities like the galleon.

    For me by the time I need mass quantities of stone I already have several galleons and/or smuggling ship and lots of transports like the stagecoach or the trek (slow but lots of space). When I find that I'll need lots of stone, I'll just send my fleet of galleons, privateers (for defense/item transport), smuggling ships and frigates or SOL to Europe or Port Royal. I buy stone in bulk eg 6-16 stacks then return home about 2-4 turns later. The stone says in my galleons until it's needed. Stone is only need much later when you build the higher-level buildings so I'll distribute them then. With my strategy, I can make tools which is always needed and stockpile or sell guns, swords and cannons. As you know selling guns to natives very far away from you is very very lucrative. When I need more stone I repeat the cycle. This strategy allows you to prepare for WOI and also makes you tons of money.

    Not you too? It's a game feature, so how can it be a cheat? If you don't like it just don't use it! :). I've already said my mind about this so...
     
  14. Swarbs

    Swarbs Emperor

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    I can see the argument for this strategy. Although I find strategies like that a bit reductive - the problem I have with Civ4Col is how repetitive the later turns get. Transport and production etc is automated, so it just becomes a case of spinning turns, shipping stuff to Europe and buying line infantry until the 50% mark is hit. Completely optimising a strategy around economics just bores me even more!

    I prefer to try and be self sufficient and balanced in my economy, trying to replicate real life and consider what the actual impact of supply and demand would be. I'm happy to sacrifice the optimal strategy in favour of a bit more variety and having to think about and plan stone, tool and silver production for buildings, rather than just buy and shortcut. But it's no more or less of a valid strategy than yours.

    The cheaty part for me is the ability to pay to rush in the absence of stone, tools and silver. I can understand rushing for hammers - to me that represents the cost of paying everyone in the colony to chop the lumber you have in stock to speed up the production.

    But paying to rush in the absence of stone just seems ridiculous to me. "Sorry m'lord, we don't have enough stone for the foundations of the university." "That's already lad, just build them out of gold!"
     
  15. PPanda0421

    PPanda0421 Chieftain

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    Like I said before each playstyle is different and no one is right or wrong.

    Pretty sure you can't rush-get those other resources unless you have access to them in Europe. E.g if tools are boycotted, you cannot automatically get tools via rushing. However if they are not boycotted then you should be able to get those tools via rushing but you're paying big $.
    I think of rushing as hiring extra hands (hammers) and hiring someone like a middleman to get those the other resources somewhere. It does not feel cheaty for me at all and IMO the balance for rushing is there:

    1. You cannot get free resources unless those resources are available for you to buy in Europe.
    2. You pay a lot money to rush.
    3. You have to wait until the next turn.
    4. Not all buildings can be rushed in WTP.

    If it were me, I'd allow rushing even if the goods were boycotted but you have to pay double or triple the Europe prices. I'd like to think that you're buying those boycotted resources from pirates/smugglers. Pirates/smuggling is already in-game so why not implement them in rushing.
     
  16. Vorpal+5

    Vorpal+5 Venturing in Erebus

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    If I may I'll add a minor UI suggestion that would improve immersion: when a unit is attacked, instead of using the generic name "Privateer" e.g, use the name of the unit followed by its type, like "Edward Teach (Privateer)"
     
  17. Swarbs

    Swarbs Emperor

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    I don't have a problem with the hiring a middleman concept, but with the fact it only takes one turn. It takes at least two for any ship to travel from Europe, so how is the middleman able to do it in one, even for colonies in the middle of the map far from ports?

    If I have to rush anything I'll always do it the 'hard' way - by transporting the materials there and only paying for the hammers.
     
  18. ConjurerDragon

    ConjurerDragon King Supporter

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    I see it this way - He is only orienting himself regarding the price to Europe - but he actually picks up any availble amount of building material around in private hands in your own colony and all neighbouring colonies. A few bricks here, a few already cut pieces of lumber there that were meant to some other private order but that he bought out at the sawmill, bribing the governour of Spanish-America to close an eye when critical building material suddenly vanishes and appears in the capital of New England, smuggling from the pirates (no, we do not trade with pirates is the only thing that you as the state can say - but a man in the middle could "import" some stuff from a pirate hold)...
     
  19. PPanda0421

    PPanda0421 Chieftain

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    You're forgetting the timescale of this game. 1 turn = 1 year at the beginning eventually become shorter increments down to several months. In that time frames those middlemen can easily get those resources, perhaps from personal stock or from individuals from within the colony or other towns, other European cities, indians, pirates, etc. That's what middlemen do. Just like in real life you can pretty much get anything you need as long you have the right connections and have the money.
     
  20. PPanda0421

    PPanda0421 Chieftain

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    Yep. Along the same lines as what I was thinking.
     

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