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onejayhawk

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This came in respect to WW I generals. The level of bloodshed for the smallest advances was staggering, and that leaves out places such a Gallipoli, where the attack failed.

The question is, could we have done differently, given the tools of war at the time? WW I had explosive artillery and machine guns, but nothing like reliable armor. Entrenching became, almost immediately, the only sane approach. Add to that the vile weather brought on by the artillery smoke. No wonder the pace was accretial. Lest we forget, the Germans and Soviets matched the death tolls, in armored engagements, 25 years later.

With current knowledge and the tools of the day, could we have broken the stalemate once the lines were drawn? In other wars, such as the American Civil war, ot the 100 years war, could we have made a big difference, given the material available?

J
 
Once trench warfare set in, the only sane course was to make peace. Unfortunately, no one in power had the foresite to see that. Leaving no alternative but to kill enough troops to cause one side to quit. If the allies had had the patience, they could have sat tight and starved the Germans out with the British blockade, but, unfortunately for the allied troops, their generals thought otherwise.
 
They should have gone the Zeppelin route, and built huge Transport Zeppelins, and used these to bring in troops (airborne) and placed these in key holding positions (bridges and so on), and use these to disrupt logistics and make key strikes. This would have allowed the main armies to press where the logistics did not work out, and forced reallocation of troops to the rear. In my opinion, the zeppelin industry was underdeveloped.
 
Well, the new conditions of a trench war lead to new techniques like armoured attacks or the use of Stoßtruppen (shock troops). Both were very successful in breaking through enemy lines. However these means were not really ready before 1918 and until then the blood ran in rivers.
Passendale for example: The British forces lost 500.000 men to take a 6 mile deep strip from the Germans in 6 month. Half a year later the Germans retook it in 3 days with the new techniques. So yes, with the means of then you could have brought an end to the stalemate.

Adler
 
I don't think "we" would have.

It depends a bit if we are talking about pre-war planning for The Big Show, or response to things after the shock of the initial fighting in 1914, when the frotnline had stabilised.

If "we" were pre-war planners in charge it's pretty obvious that the Germans should have tried to motorize their infantry (but that would have been a real quantum-leap in military thinking and logistic preparation). The French should have adopted a more defensive doctrine, pouring their money into heavy, long-range artillery and medium-heavy portable machineguns to be deployed at the frontline in mobile defense (i.e. less emphasis on the, though superb, rapid fire 75mm flat-trajectory field arty and the heavy Hotchkiss machineguns intended for static defense).

I guess the British should simply have gone for "Build A Bigger BEF". Everyone should have started stockpiling shells years in advance, in astronomical quantities light-years beyond the expectation on demand.

Apart from the problem of being pre-scient, to do this would have required a peacetime industrial buildup and diversion of means to the military which would have been politically impossible at the time. It's not as is the major powers in WWI went to war feeling as if they did so without proper preparations. The French kept jacking up the percentage of manpower in arms and the service time for twenty years prior to WWI. The Germans could have put more people in uniform, but gave it a miss due to a certain nervousness about arming workers.
That might have been the best way for Germany to win the war in 1914. Another million men in uniform laying into Russia and France simultaneously might have decided the war quickly, not least being able to adopt an aggressive stance in Russia. A short and successful war would have posed no danger from worker unrest to Imperial Germany.

If we otoh are talking about response to the trench-war stalemate, it's obvious that replacing Joffre sooner could have saved the lives of French troops, as Joffre all through 1915 kept trying to go on the offensive, making 1915 the worst years of the war for France casualty-wise.

Aside from that, people did respond pretty rapidly and appropriately. The British army badly needed numbers and more ammo. Recruituing and training a million man army started asap (Kitchener even starting recruitment on his own initiative, "the Kitchener mob") , and ammo was fortcoming as soon as industrial production could be switched to this need. But it still took until spring 1916 before the UK could field an army in the numbers of France and Germany. It was fed into the Somme, which was the first British taste of what this new kind of mass-warfare was really like.

The French in 1915 replaced their 19th c. colourful uniforms (kept due to a political initative overruling the military, which wanted khaki already in 1911), and started producing long-range heavy arty with a view to catching up and overtaking the Germans (which they did by mid 1917). The tank was thought up by the Brits, and eagerly adopted by the French asap. The French army in 1916 comissioned the production of a light machinegun for infantry use, which entered service for the spring-offensive of 1917 (the Chauchat, absolutely essential piece of junk that it was).
In 1916 the artillery general Nivelle came up with the timed barrage, put in into practice successful on a smaller tactical scale, which was why in 1917 he was given repsonsibility for The Big Push to end the war. His mistake was to assume what worked in a small battle could simply be upscaled to work in a huge offensive. That failure came close to breaking the French army in 1917.
Otoh the French army then went back to Nivelles original format and scored limited tactical but impressive victories on the Germans in the Autumn of 1917 as part of restoring troop moral.

And that's about it. People worked out how to go about fighting a successful WWI battle several years before the end of the war. As Adler said, what was lacking was sufficient manpower and hardware to allow one side to really dominate the other until 1918.

The Germans actually did most things right initially. Which might be part of the explanation why they were slow to catch on to things like the tank and the light machinegun. Stormtrooper tactics was a sound invention, if casualties weren't a problem and momentum could be kept indefinately. As it turned out moving fast enough far enough with infantry was still a problem, and the casualty rate alone would probably have been enough to make French and British commanders dismiss the tactic for use in their own armies, as compared to the massive fire-power superiority and armoured tactics they enjoyed by war's end. Germany lost in the end due to inability to match the hardware prodution of the Entente.

I think the problem of many of the WWI commanders looking mediocre was usually a matter of pushing a sound idea beyond the breaking point. Joffre saved France's ass at the Marne through an inspired counter-attack, but made himself impossible in 1915 by going on counter-attacking like that.
Similarily Nivelle did come up with inspired new uses of artillery, but pushed the envelope beyond the breaking point in the spring of 1917. It's Pétain who comes out of WWI with an unblemished record, but Pétain hardly invented anything, he just had the cool and sense not to try to go beyond the means at his disposal.
 
i think the problem with ww1 was that they tried to attack the enemies strongpoints, rather than a more modern 'hit the weak point, push through' approach.
 
realtively speaking, yes. ww1 ended up being fought with attrition in mind- hit the enemies biggest bunch with our biggest bunch, we can afford the casualties. it was a war fought mostly with 19th century thinking.
 
And therein lies the crux of the problem. Attrition sounds like a good word, and it does work, but it is a "little bit hard" of the troops using that method! The fact is, that from Christmas, 1914 to the German offensives in March/April 1918, the Western front was one big bloodbath with no gains for either side, except to kill and maim millions of men and expend millions of artillery rounds. Throwing ever larger masses of men at machine guns is not a logical way to fight a war!

None of the top military or civilian leaders of the time, on either side, anticipated trench warfare, or even a long war. Don't you know, it will all be over by Christmas! And when it wasn't, no one really knew what to do.
 
Because, of course, due to the state of military technology at the time, defense was much cheaper than offense - machine guns and reinforced concrete being the main culprits. So the glorious dash to break the enemy failed rather drastically.
 
As Eran said, the real problem with WWI was that technology was too far ahead of tactics, which was much of the cause of the high casualty rates during the American Civil War.

While hindsight shows that the "siege" of Petersburg during the American Civil War *could* have been instructive for European generals, two things IMO kept that from happening:

1. European generals didn't have much respect for the Civil War armies; one (Moltke?) called them "armed mobs".

2. The Franco-Prussian and Austro-Prussian wars did not become excercises in trench warfare, which gave no one any reason to believe a future war would be any different.
 
And therein lies the crux of the problem. Attrition sounds like a good word, and it does work, but it is a "little bit hard" of the troops using that method! The fact is, that from Christmas, 1914 to the German offensives in March/April 1918, the Western front was one big bloodbath with no gains for either side, except to kill and maim millions of men and expend millions of artillery rounds. Throwing ever larger masses of men at machine guns is not a logical way to fight a war!
No it's not, which is why the war wasn't really fought like that beyond 1915 by the French (Joffre fired), and 1916 by the Germans (Falkenhayn and Verdun). That's to say, when these commanders had the opportunity of picking the time, place and circumstances it usually wasn't.
(I.e. at Verdun the French were drawn into a slugfest based on Falkenhayn's ideas about the workability of attrition and the realisation that for political and symbolic reasons the French would be compelled to fight. Otherwise things did get a lot more sophistcated fairly quickly.)

Maybe it's a fair assesment to say that the British army stuck to massed ranks of men charging machineguns, or walking slowly towards them longer than the others, as late as at the Somme in 1916, which was rather longer than the rest?

By 1916 the French army had already started to rely on innovative artillery tactics to overcome heavy defenses. What hampered them was the lack of heavy guns. Access to these was limited by the speed with which the French armaments industry could churn them out. It wasn't a lack of understanding of how to use them.

Tank production was begun in 1916, and by war's end France had produced more tanks than all the other combatants combined. They were effectively used in the autumn 1917 Malmaison offensive, designed to show the French troops that they could attack the Germans and win big with low casualties of their own (18000 Frenchmen to 50000 Germans, 3000 French KIA to 14000 German KIA).

The big difference between the success of the small Malmaison offensive and the disaster of the huge 1917 Chemin-de-dames offensive, were 200 tanks were deployed, seems to have been reconnaissance. At Chemin-des-dames 1917 the Germans had withdrawn from the frontline the French attacked and went straight for the counter-attack. The French were unaware of this move. At Malmaison French aerial reconnaissance took insane amounts of photographs of the German position before, during and after the battle to make sure everyting about the situation was absolutely transparent to them. That was also what made it impossible to mount a major offensive with the same kind of care and attention to detail. There just wouldn't be enough planes, guns and tanks around necessary to make it work on a broader canvass.

From 1915 there was rushed design and production of a light portable machinegun for use by the French infantry. What they got in time for the 1917 spring offensive was the "Chauchat" light MG. It was a piece of junk, highly unreliable and the men hated them. Or rather, they hated them, but there was never any question about not bringing them along, the reason being that this was an absolutely essential piece of equipment. It allowed troops to take enemy position, quickly entrench, and meet the inevitable counterattack with auto-fire, which was the key to holding captured ground. It was in fact harder to hold ground than to take ground. The "chauchat" was hated because of its unreliability. When it worked it would win the battle and save your life. When it didn't, you died.
The British never came up with a light MG of their own. The Germans normally never provided their men with something more than the MG 08, which was a fairly heavy lump of metal to lug around, often mounted on some kind of sled to be pulled. The "chauchat" you could throw over your shoulder and sprint between the foxholes with. The Germans did come up with the first SMG, the "Machinenpistole 18" though. The order was put in already in 1915, and it was used in the 1918 offensives, but seemingly it was never produced in sufficient numbers, about 3000 by war's end. The "chauchat" otoh was produced in 250.000 copies during the war. 50.000 or so went to the US army in France.

Really, the French army in WWI is extraordinarily interesting both for the hole-in-the-head tactics used in 1914-15 and for the tactical and technological sophistication of it from 1916 onwards. They may have started out suicidal, but went for machinery and firepower in ways the British and Germans wouldn't (the Brits) or couldn't (the Germans).

The flip side of that might actually be how British commanders, not least the reliable Gallophobe Haig, would slag the French off for being cowards when their commanders had drawn the logical conclusions re. the impossibility of wall-of-meat-tactics, and decided not to attempt things beyond their technological capabilities. Until late 1918 that limited them to small tactical battles where they could cram enough firepower into a small sector to take the German defenders out without exorbitant casualties among their own men. When they strayed from that recipy, most importantly Nivelle's 1917 offensive, they got hurt, badly.
 
I thought Joffre was fired in 1916, after Verdun?
Yeah, but after 1915 he didn't have any chance to start a real offensive before he got fired, because Verdun happened.
 
But in the Eastern Front Russian general Brisilov managed to break strongly fortified Austria-Hungarian trech-lines in 1916.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brusilov_Offensive

The operation was marked by a considerable improvement in the quality of Russian tactics. Brusilov used smaller specialized units of soldiers to attack weak points in the Austro-Hungarian trench lines and blow open holes for the rest of the Russian Army to advance into. These shock tactics were a remarkable departure from the "human wave" tactics that were prevalent until that point during World War I by the Russians, Austro-Hungarians and Germans, and indeed most armies at the time. The irony was that the Russians themselves did not realize the potential of the tactics that Brusilov produced. It would be Germany that seized on the model and utilized "storm troopers" to great effect in the 1918 offensive on the Western Front, which was hastily copied and used to an even greater effect by the Western Allies.
 
I payed attention to the Brusilov Offensive just because it was a strategical advance. Area of 25000 square cilometers was liberated.

Of course, Russia failed to effectively use its results, but that is another story...
 
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