A mid-Industrial war with no oil. Suggestions?

[billindenver]

Here is my situation. Playing on Monarch, I've got a good civ going with Japan. After taking India out of my continent around the time of my Samurai, I have about 20 very good cities on one good continent, with the Chinese occupying about the northern 1/3. I am ahead of all civs by 1-2 techs and have lotsa dough. I want to clear China off my continent before they get any more techs.

Unfortunately, I waited too long, and they have infantry. All of their cities are at least 12, meaning they get huge defensive bonuses. I tried my first attack against a city with a pop of around 22, and it had 5 infantry. My 20 artillery only knocked the pop down 1-2 the first turn, and my pigheaded cavalry attacks against the somewhat weakened infantry was a slaughter. It took me about 6 turns of bombing and attacking to get that city, and probably about 4 turns for the next.

I was finally able to reach the interior of China enough to pillage their rails and roads over their rubber and horses, and if they can't trade for those resources, that will help. However, this process is going WAY slower than I thought given my strong military production. I have very little hope of oil, with the strongest country in the game, Egypt, controlling the only 2 sources of oil on the standard map, and trading one of those to China.

Given marines, infantry, cavalry, and artillery, and little hope of oil, how can I clear these varmints off my continent without losing 100 turns or more?

 

[Hades]

Option 1:
Be friend with egypt and buy their oil at all cost. First start building transports then load them up with tanks. When you have enough tanks then go attack eqypt and get the oil. Once you secured the oil, you can eaily build more tanks to clear your continent.

Option2:
Build 60 additional artilleries. With the existing 20 you will have 2 groups of 40 artilleries. Each group should reduce a size 20 city to rubble in 2 turns. So by doing along with your constant supply of infantry, you should be able to capture one city each turn.

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by billindenver
Unfortunately, I waited too long, and they have infantry. All of their cities are at least 12, meaning they get huge defensive bonuses.

Artillery works, but you must be patient. Park your Artillery, backed by plenty of Infantry, on top of a nearby hill and start pounding away -- and keep pounding way until the city is reduced to rubble and the enemy defenders are red-lined. Only then press the attack.

Anyone can attack with Tanks. It takes finesse to successfully attack in the Age of Infantry.

http://www.zachriel.com/gotm9/ad1640-Oil.htm

 

[Evincar]

Originally posted by Zachriel

Anyone can attack with Tanks. It takes finesse to successfully attack in the Age of Infantry.

I didn't know that reducing cities to rubble was called "finesse"

 

[XOVER]

Wait guys. He ain't gonna get tanks without oil. And it's unlikely he's gonna get oil to build tanks since China will likely continue to renew its deal with Egypt indefinitely.

Artillery bombardment is fine and well, but this guy is maxed out with Marines. And, for all intents a purposes, his fast attack unit, Cavalry, is swiftly becoming an anachronism. Wait until China produces tanks! Oy vey!

Even with massed artillery, I don't think you have any options except that 100 turn war. Hey, look at it this way: At least your bound to produce a great leader or three out of all that warfare! And if you don't fight China to the death, they might well turn the tide if they get tanks early enough.

Did you pay attention once Refining was discovered to trade for oil before China did? Or were you shut out by Egypt the whole time? Man, not even aluminum is going to help you!

So . . . make peace with China asap. Get situated and get some MDPs going, and . . . attack the Egyptions, heading straight for an oil field. Produce a harbor, and then come back to those pesky Chinese later.

Sorry, no help.

 

[EQandcivfanatic]

In a war like this myself. 3 sources of oil on island which is constantly being pillaged and fought over by me and 3 other nations (world right now is a free-for-all) and thats it for oil.

Marines are currently the best attackers anyone can get. I suggest you use them for your game too. Use everyuy oppurtunitiy for an amphibious landing as that eliminates defensive bonuses.

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Evincar
I didn't know that reducing cities to rubble was called "finesse"

1 : refinement or delicacy of workmanship, structure, or texture

Delicacy? Nope. Definitely not THAT kind of finesse.


2 : skillful handling of a situation : adroit maneuvering

Adroit. That sounds about right.


(Good point Evincar. Finesse like Stalin! )

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by EQandcivfanatic
Marines are currently the best attackers anyone can get. I suggest you use them for your game too. Use everyuy oppurtunitiy for an amphibious landing as that eliminates defensive bonuses.

Unfortunately, I do not think that is correct. The "number crunchers" have reported testing demonstrating that Marines do not ignore defensive bonuses. Marines with preliminary bombardment is the answer. The key to successful bombardment is patience. Pound the target, turn after turn if necessary, until there is no resistance.

http://www.zachriel.com/gotm9/ad1858-Boston.htm

 

[Yndy]

I also vote for artilery is key.

But you need at least 40 Arty to see that. My tactic is a little different than Zachariel's.
I build around 100 infantry (but only attack with about 40 (rest are for arty defense, road pillaging, reserves for the main attack stack, other defense duties).
Then I also have about 20 - 40 cavs.

Infantry and artillery move at the slow rate while cav rest (you'll see why).
Arty reaches position one turn before inf and start punding the city (in my experience a stack of 40 decrease pop by around 5 in the first turn but increases as there are less buildings remaining in the following turns).
Second turn arty fires and hopefully brings city under 13 (if not offensive may be delayed until that event). At the end of the arty round defenders are ussually yellow not red-lined.
Cavalry attacks (can come from my territory due to their fast speed).
Best case scenario: about 1/3 of my cavs die some inflicting wounds on enemy inf, some not, about 1/3 retreat without doing any harm to inf, about 1/3 win and destroy half of the defending inf).
Worst case scenario: you lose half your cavs and redline or destroy some defense (bad luck could bring worst results but in my experience always did something).
Your 40 infantry charge on the remaining defendes and bring victory.
Finally, wounded cavs go to a city with barracks to rest.
Works pretty well for me.

 

[Shabbaman]

Artillery will always work. If you manage to build railroads all over the place, including to the front, you even don't have to worry about your defence (as long as they don't get tanks...) since you can relocate your artillery stack in a second.

 

[thefrenchzulu]

I agree artillery is key.I've just fought a similar kind of war. Difference was, it was modern age and I could get some modern armour before attacking. (Traded oil with my victom)

When I realised the AI was going to win space victory (One had three parts completed and three in progress and the other 4 completed), I had a variety of musketmen, spearmen and some pikes. I had two knights. Total of about 30 defensive units! (Playing for culture 1 city victory. Had about 10 cities)

I was seen a weak with two AI's having tanks and more than 100 MI each. One AI had 5 Nukes!

I still manage to beat both without going into wartime production. (Monarch game)

70 artilleries and some good MPP's and that was it. No ROP betrayal and all the Civs are still gracious toward me

Took one city at a time with artillery. Took a size32 city down to 6 in three turns. Used some rockets as well!

Will post this as a story, cause it took great care to manage.

 

[Mr. Civ 3]

Haha! You think that artillery will prevent you from going to a long war?!? I say: use espionage.

 

[thefrenchzulu]

Originally posted by Mr. Civ 3
Haha! You think that artillery will prevent you from going to a long war?!? I say: use espionage.

And do what? You got me confused!

An artillery war can be fast if done correctly. I've managed to kill an entire Civ(the strongest one) in less than 100 years, 1750-1850 using artillery

 

[billindenver]

Originally posted by Zachriel


Artillery works, but you must be patient. Park your Artillery, backed by plenty of Infantry, on top of a nearby hill and start pounding away -- and keep pounding way until the city is reduced to rubble and the enemy defenders are red-lined. Only then press the attack.

Anyone can attack with Tanks. It takes finesse to successfully attack in the Age of Infantry.

http://www.zachriel.com/gotm9/ad1640-Oil.htm

OK, guys, just to follow up. I went ahead with this game keeping your suggestions in mind. I added probably 10 more arty, and just pounded away. It generally took 2-3 turns to reduce the cities to size 12 and red-line the defenders, and then the cavalry and marines were reasonably effective. The war probably took 30 turns or so, but at least it progressed pretty smoothly after the first feeble human wave attempts to storm the cities.

I never got oil during that war, but after the war, was able to trade technology for it, for a while. Egypt and I were the only two left standing at the end. I never made an attempt to go after Egypt, but was able to stay ahead of them in tech, and got a space race victory.

I was kinda bummed at the end. I really wanted to delay completing the spaceship and finally research future techs (still haven't ever done that in Civ III), but Egypt had everything except laser and I didn't want to risk them researching that and throwing a space race victory back at me. Plus, I stupidly wasted my Egypt spy doing a 'expose spy' operation. DUMB.

That reminds me. Is there any way to determine which tech another civ is researching? I might have been able to delay the victory if I knew for sure he wasn't researching Laser.

 

[pterrok]

When you have a spy in a given nation, you can check the Space Race to see what they have and what they're building. Of course, the tricky thing a human can do is to be building something like an ICBM, then switch production of it over to the last spaceship part you need just when it would finish! <g>


One last point about assaulting cities with infantry...if you DO have a lot of infantry, you need to spread out over the countryside to keep that city from getting food and/or shields to build stuff. If you get it to starving, that extra lost citizen a turn helps!

You may want to sorch the earth or keep your men sitting there depending on your future plans with the land...

 

[billindenver]

I was able to see what techs he had just by offering a trade to him every single turn. When he researched Superconductor, it no longer appeared in the techs that I could trade to him.

I use the ICBM-convert-to-wonder thing all the time. I don't know if the AI ever does that (I doubt it), but I don't know if they use Great Leaders to rush Wonders either. If so, and he had a Great Leader, he could've rushed it the same turn he discovered it and I woulda been screwed.

 

[Gastric ReFlux]

I'm surprised no one suggested trying to sign Egypt into an alliance against China, depriving China of the oil and making it available for trade.

 

[billindenver]

Originally posted by Gastric ReFlux
I'm surprised no one suggested trying to sign Egypt into an alliance against China, depriving China of the oil and making it available for trade.

China didn't have the tech for tanks or mech infantry, but they did throw a few ironclads and battleships my way to blow up some improvements.

I did request an embargo, but they wouldn't go for that, at least not without gaining a really good tech. Not sure what they woulda wanted to an alliance. Wish I'd checked!

 

[Fierro1816]

I had a similar situation in my latest game. Very frustrating.

 

[TheDS]

The Alliance thing was good. MPP would also turn the trick, but I think it costs more.

Without Oil, the only Modern units you can make (under default rules) are Marines, Infantry, Arty, Radarty, AEGIS, Nuc Subs, and the 3 Missiles (Cruise, Tactical Nuke, and ICBM).

With nukes, you could deprive everybody of Oil. But you probably don't want to do that. Instead, mount a large invasion force, get it in position, DoW Egypt, take the cities near the Oil, and hold on till they're willing to talk peace.

Generally I'm big enough by the time Oil is discovered that I have some somewhere. I had a game though where there were only 5 Oils on the map, and I was lucky enough to have 3 of them. The two civs with the other two Oils were number 2 and 3 in strength, and they liked each other and disliked me, but I didn't have the power to take them down quickly until later.