[R&F] A Monumental Mistake?

[Victoria]

Vanilla Monument Costs 60 - 2 culture
R&F Monument Costs 60 - 1 loyalty, 1 Culture (if at 100% loyalty)

In Vanilla you would never build one first but it would be up there and in new cities it was useful early.
I could build a monument or a trade route, both of roughly equal value.

In R&F we have something that has pretty much halved in value, Firaxis has halved the size of the chocolate bar but kept the price the same.

Are we habitually continuing to build these nerfed lumps of rock or is there still enough reason.
They seem a bit overpriced for what they are now.

Thoughts?

 

[arthur486]

It gives 1 culture regardless, +1 culture bonus if loyalty is at 100%. When hovering over the culture display, it shows 1 from monument and 1 from bonus.

 

[Victoria]

It gives 1 culture regardless, +1 culture bonus if loyalty is at 100%. When hovering over the culture display, it shows 1 from monument and 1 from bonus.

oh dear One must go start up the large beast basking in the living room sun and see how stupid I have been

One feels like the monumental mistake is mine

 

[Karpius]

I have almost exclusively played Rome since R&F, which means the monument is part of the package, so to speak. However, from a non-optimal, immersive point of view, the monument is definitely worth it....to me.

Also, and I certainly don't have the numbers to back this, but I make it the first item to be repaired in a conquered city. I am convinced it helps with that early loyalty number.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

i've started prioritizing it. culture for early government seems more valuable than ever.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

This is one of the better design choices in R&F, I think. I like this subtle adjustment to how Monuments work.

More of this, please. Buildings/districts/improvements that have multiple effects are more interesting.

 

[agonistes]

Still worth building for sure. +1 loyalty can make a difference, culture from buildings is more valuable now.

Unless I'm encountering unusual circumstances, monument is the first thing I build in non-capital cities.

 

[BarbarianHunter]

Previously I would actively pursue monuments by purchasing them with gold in necessary. Now I just sort of build them whenever.

 

[Rosty K]

Unless I'm encountering unusual circumstances, monument is the first thing I build in non-capital cities.

Right, because it's the fastest way to start growing the borders in a new city. Or are there some other ways I'm missing?

 

[agonistes]

Right, because it's the fastest way to start growing the borders in a new city. Or are there some other ways I'm missing?

Well, really they offer a trifecta, and that is good value for the investment. More culture, more loyalty, and faster border growth.

 

[UWHabs]

Well, really they offer a trifecta, and that is good value for the investment. More culture, more loyalty, and faster border growth.

Yep, definitely a solid change. If you need the loyalty, the +1 is something. And if you don't, then you get more culture.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

Yep, definitely a solid change. If you need the loyalty, the +1 is something. And if you don't, then you get more culture.

It also offers a reasonable decision in terms of choosing a priority for a new city: defence (walls), monument, district, or builder (chops/land improvement).

In an ideal world, the defence comes as an escort to the city, the builder accompanies the settler, and you have enough gold to buy the monument, so you can put the city to work on its first district. But in a less than ideal world, there are some reasonable choices to decide between in each city's particular circumstances.

 

[SirWill90]

oh dear One must go start up the large beast basking in the living room sun and see how stupid I have been

One feels like the monumental mistake is mine

Thanks for the thread though, yer Majesty, I didn’t realize there was a culture bonus for loyalty until now. Well done, heh

 

[Melchizedek]

This seems like an opportunity to ask: has anyone tried the monument as a first build in the capital for R&F? I think the incentive to get governors and a government going is strong, and I've even found the monument -> settler build order viable on Immortal, if your initial warrior doesn't find a major threat in the vicinity. An additional advantage is that you can pop Craftsmanship soon enough to build your slingers/archers/builders with policy card help instead of paying full price. It's definitely situational, but on Immortal it is one way to play. I don't know if it can be done safely on Deity.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

This seems like an opportunity to ask: has anyone tried the monument as a first build in the capital for R&F? I think the incentive to get governors and a government going is strong, and I've even found the monument -> settler build order viable on Immortal, if your initial warrior doesn't find a major threat in the vicinity. An additional advantage is that you can pop Agoge soon enough to build your slingers/archers with it instead of paying full price. It's definitely situational, but on Immortal it is one way to play. I don't know if it can be done safely on Deity.

I haven't tried it. I think you get more culture, faster from your first Settler (boost to Early Empire) and Builder (Craftsmanship) so I'd slot it behind those two, and then fit in Scout / military units to your tastes / current map conditions.

 

[Sylfea]

oh dear One must go start up the large beast basking in the living room sun and see how stupid I have been

One feels like the monumental mistake is mine

No, I'm really happy you made this thread, I understood it to work the way you originally posted it myself and if I hadn't noticed this discussion I would have continued devaluing monuments in blissful ignorance for who-knows-how-long...

 

[Victoria]

Thanks for the thread though, yer Majesty, I didn’t realize there was a culture bonus for loyalty until now. Well done, heh

No, I'm really happy you made this thread, I understood it to work the way you originally posted it myself and if I hadn't noticed this discussion I would have continued devaluing monuments in blissful ignorance for who-knows-how-long...

We all make mistakes, the Wiki does not help.. although the word additional is a giveaway now I think about it

Not worth its own thread but wondering why I cannot shoot through a delicate arch, it should act like a sight.

 

[DanielINH]

I haven't tried it. I think you get more culture, faster from your first Settler (boost to Early Empire) and Builder (Craftsmanship) so I'd slot it behind those two, and then fit in Scout / military units to your tastes / current map conditions.

I always start with the monument, thinking of expanding borders faster, but I may have problems with military at the beggining of the game

 

[Victoria]

I always start with the monument, thinking of expanding borders faster,

If you are going to go non military then a builder/scout are best, the extra production it brings and the agoge inspiration are worth a lot. 3 normal builds are builder, slinger and scout with the highly efficient players going scout or builder. The monument sort of makes you go too fast too early for the inspirations.

 

[arthur486]

Actually, the way I found this was in a game were I thought my culture was too high and tried to account for everything. It took me about an hour to figure out what was what, so at least others don't have to. And yes, the Civpedia is confusing, as always