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A programmers perspective on a buggy release.

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Bug Reports' started by civhawaii, Sep 24, 2010.

  1. Pyrion

    Pyrion Liquid Metal Nanomorph

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2005
    Messages:
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    Location:
    Spirit Lake, ID
    We're used to it, that's why. Getting a half-finished game is the rule, not the exception - it'll be "done" when they stop issuing updates for it.

    Incidentally, this has been Microsoft's modus operandi for decades. We're used to that too.

    Every single one of us that buys a game and sends in a bug report has basically paid for the privilege of being a beta tester in exchange for getting early access to a game. That's one way of looking at it, since if the game was held back until it was "done" done, we wouldn't be cracking jokes about Duke Nukem Forever, because DNF's development cycle would be the rule, not the exception.

    And what'll be really hilarious is if DNF releases in a half-finished state too, like Daikatana. Anyone remember Daikatana? :D
     
  2. GreyIago

    GreyIago Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2010
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    88
    When it's apparently a localized issue? Yeah. It's not game breaking.
     
  3. NecroDMI

    NecroDMI Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2010
    Messages:
    14
    I am sure I am just a little frustrated. The debate over multiplayer v. AI is for another thread. But to quote page 6 of the Bradygames official Civ 5 strategy guide "Experienced players often know what to do better than the computer"
     
  4. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    25,057
    There are an AWFUL lot of these "localized issues", which are somehow not unique to me.

    Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

    Edit: FYI, it is a CONFIRMED bug, so try again.
     
  5. lemmy101

    lemmy101 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2006
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    1,064
    There's a natural human thing where someone has an experience and assumes everyone else has that same experience. You have a problem, and you assume this is some global problem that is affecting everyone equally. Get used to the fact that for a lot of people here (a majority according to the various polls), and no doubt a lot of people who have never seen this site, are having no problems, or very minor ones, that do not impact their enjoyment of the game.

    Just because you have a problem, and see a bunch of threads that probably amount to 0.00001% of the total customer base that support your view, that therefore that is necessarily significant or important for everyone else.

    I've had issues with Civ 5. I also had issues with countless other games, products, operating systems, phones and everything else... and comparatively I've found Civ 5 to be pretty solid and reliable IN MY OWN ACTUAL EXPERIENCES.

    Many others share my experiences.... who's to say you're the massive majority? What if (as I suspect is the case) there's 100x as many of us than there are of you? Sure it's important to get these bugs fixed, and it's a shame you're affected to the point you can't enjoy the game fully (or apparently at all) but you must understand that because you personally have a problem and you've found a few people who share your woes, doesn't automatically make Firaxis a bunch of hacks.
     
  6. NecroDMI

    NecroDMI Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2010
    Messages:
    14
    Well, I guess I come from a sheetmetal deformation simulation software business development manger perspective. Since this is what I have been doing for the last 12 years of my professional work life. Building mods in your loft/studio (which is probably code for mom's basement) does not lend itself to the authority position that you portray. Get off your biased pedestal you lemmy420 typical hippie gamer weirdo. I am out.

    Moderator Action: Please don't flame other members, this is a forum for civil discussion.
    Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
     
  7. lemmy101

    lemmy101 Chieftain

    Joined:
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    Sheetmetal deformation? Very impressive! And I'm 'building mods in my mom's basement'? Oh, so we're 'comparing sizes' now, are we? Is that what's going to happen?

    I worked on a game that was number one in the all systems console charts, if you must know. I don't like feeling I need to make such a bold claim in case it makes me look like a smug dick, but I alluded a bit more vaguely to the fact I felt I could speak with a tad of insight into how game development works in my original post.

    Don't make assumptions about who you're talking to. And certainly don't parade your sheetmetal simulation management around like it's supposed to lend your argument any merit, least of all impress anyone.
     
  8. Drake L. Dragon

    Drake L. Dragon Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2010
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    128
    I agree with this post. The fundamental problem here is about conceptual interpretation. Just because you interpret something as a value does not make that value reality. For example, a prominent thread is that it was a bug that a longbowman could defeat a rifleman, but that assertion proves my point that what is and what isn't a bug is subjective mostly. Historically, while guns typically overpowered the arrows, arrows were sometimes able to overpower the guns -- particularly if guerrilla tactics were used. Now, I'm surely not saying that arrows could defeat guns the majority of the times, because that statement would clearly be false, but I am saying that it is not far-fetched that arrows could defeat guns sometimes, and yet people actually think that longbowmen defeating riflemen is completely absurd and is a bug.

    Some people also think that diplomatic allies turning on you with no prior warning, especially at the higher difficulties, is a bug, but it is just as valid to say that it is intended for the obvious reasons of spicing up the game and history, specifically now because the player can't see the factors that are influencing a rival's relations with you, as in Civilization IV. The point is that what most people call bugs are really just features that those criticizers don't like, and I'm fine with criticisms against those features, but what is not good is when people don't differentiate between something most probably intended and what isn't. Now, of course, there are indeed some parts of the game that most of us would agree are indeed bugs, but, in comparing those mistakes with 99% of the rest of the game that worked as intended, especially since, if we are all honest, those bugs are pretty unnoticeable unless you deliberately seek them out, (Except for multiplayer) I frankly don't believe that it is fair to judge the product in that manner.

    Sure, if swordsmen could defeat helicopters like in Civilization IV, that would be and was a valid complaint against an actual bug, but I haven't seen something like that in Civilization V yet, and I probably won't.
     
  9. Oneluv

    Oneluv Chieftain

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Between the Doviello and the D.B.S
     
  10. Biz_

    Biz_ Chieftain

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    game runs pretty well. doesn't crash. much better than most PC launches
     
  11. Droogie11

    Droogie11 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2010
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    I develop business software as well and I see what you are saying but the analogy isn't very good in my opinion because of the business model behind business software being vastly different from that behind games.

    First of all, when a potential customer offers us $50 for developing some product they usually don't end up as our customer and releasing buggy software to a customer that paid $200k and then charging him $100 per manhour to fix the mess afterwards isn't exactly the same as releasing free patches for a $50 game ;)

    Second of all, Firaxis sells you a license to use their software... and if you hate the software you can get your money back. So... if you want to make a statement just get a refund and/or don't buy the next Firaxis game.

    And yes I understand 100,000 customers * $50 = more than $50 but since they can all act individually it doesn't really matter. It's just the reason games can be sold so cheaply in comparison to business software.
     
  12. gunter

    gunter Chieftain

    Joined:
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    You should try F1 2010, that's a pre alpha realease and forumers are rioting demanding refunds, petitions are surfacing everywhere and Codemaster has already been sued by several customers.

    Civ V compared to F1 2010 is a piece of cake....and BTW it will patched within days as the Fanatics home page states.
     
  13. slowjames

    slowjames Chieftain

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    Sep 22, 2010
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    You develop business software, not consumer entertainment products. The gulf between your line of work and this is vast conceptually, even if the substrate is the same. Your industry has about as much in common with Firaxis' as someone who mixes stone to make concrete has with a marble sculptor.
     
  14. bossconian

    bossconian Chieftain

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    OH YES !!! I AGREE !!! STFU !!!! What a rant. This game is beautiful and I love my Longbows killing battleships! I being satisfied with all the bugs in the game and I exploit them as much as I can. The graphics is just 1000x better than anything released yet and crysis looks like 100 years old game. I love animated leaders who looks as if someone took pictures of true people. GG ans STFU again !
     
  15. Dunsparrow

    Dunsparrow Chieftain

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    I'm a designer (not a programmer) in the gaming industry and I can tell you that no amount of QA or other procedures are going to give you a bug-free release. Programmers and designers are faced with deadlines, schedules and enormous pressure that only increases with each day approaching Gold status.

    Producers and management have to make the decision about releasing on time vs. delaying. Delay means additional costs and reduced revenue. At some point the decision has to be made for the product to start paying for itself. This decision has gotten easier with the prevalence of high-speed internet connections and the ability to quickly and easily patch games through platforms like Steam.

    While Civilization I would have to be postponed due to serious bugs, Civilization V can be released with the bugs present and then a patch can be applied at or near the time of release and as necessary thereafter. This means the product winds up in our hands more quickly, and this actually aids the bug fixing process because we're going to isolate and replicated bugs much faster than any QA team ever could.

    Civ 5 is remarkably polished and none of the bugs are really game-breaking. I'm glad they released it on time and I'm happy with my purchase. These bugs are going to be fixed and I don't think this is really a major issue.
     
  16. BrianSpiller

    BrianSpiller Chieftain

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    Again - I work in business software, so not directly applicable, but I do manage our QAT exercise.

    It's all good saying that software should be released without bugs and in principle, I agree. However, performing testing is expensive, as is fixing any issues found and you can run your test exercise until the end of time and not verify that you software is correct (testing can only identify errors, not prove the lack of them) so you have to draw the line somewhere. This decision is usually made based on commercials. If it costs less for the customer (and the developer) to live with the existing bugs than it does to fix them, then it's not worth fixing (from a commercial viewpoint). This cost can include loss to reputation, customer satisfaction etc.

    The point is, from a business perspective, there will be a time when testing any further and fixing any more bugs is not worth it. Somewhere in Firaxis has made the decision to sign off the release. They will probably know of most of the issues people are finding (I hope) but have taken that viewpoint, and to a degree, I would support their decision.
     
  17. Mallipeep

    Mallipeep Chieftain

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    Nov 6, 2002
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    Yeah right
    http://www.webcpa.com/news/New-IRS-Software-Rejected-23-Percent-E-filed-Returns-54978-1.html

    Youd think HALF A BILLION AMERICAN DOLLARS would buy proper FULL QA. And things like that happen all the time in the business world - if every developer that was part of such projects kicked out of the software DEV world we would have a million unemployed software developers now.

    ---

    Given that i'm not saying ciV is not the best game when it comes to bugs (well above the average tho).
     
  18. bhavv

    bhavv Glorious World Dictator

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    Forget the bugs, all the female leaders are called 'Lords'.

    How can they NOT have even seen and fixed that before release?

    The manual is also full of so many unbelievable errors that any Civ veteran could have written better. There are even errors in the civilopedia, Ive never seen that before in earlier Civ games.
     
  19. Sinis

    Sinis Chieftain

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    Location:
    Netherlands
    I disagree with the OP. At a big company like ''Oracle'' they also sell faulty products to get as much profit as possible. My brother works at Oracle. And his job is to calm down all the customers that recieved the faulty product. We are talking about 50 million dollar deals. Oracle knows its broke but still sells it. Its the way of the world. you get your customers to report the bugs back to you. So please dont say this only happens in the gaming industry.

    Civ5 is a great game and me and my friends enjoy it alot, but we all know it has some bugs. For me thats not a big deal at all. Im used to most ''software'' having bugs on release. This is also normal now days.
     
  20. Ralgar

    Ralgar Chieftain

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    Dec 13, 2006
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    1. Software is hard.
    2. Every non-trivial program has at least one bug.

    With a PC Game you also have to put up with the heterogeneity of hardware/software, if you program for game consoles (or even Mac/iOS) you have an easier QA-Job. Of course this can't ultimately be an excuse and I hope as many as possible crashes/bugs will be as soon as possible fixed.

    That said, two things puzzled me immensly in the "release-day" patch:
    First the AI-stuff with the 5 GPT and AI valuation of cities in trades. Perhaps it was broken unintentionally in some last minute changes. But if this was not catched before the game gone Gold there could not have been much play-testing! Also here:

    This is so obvious! It is good that it is patched, but that this design decision did go in the release version I find very, very strange.
     

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