A programmers perspective on a buggy release.

I can't recall a single game I've ever played on release where someone doesn't say exactly what they OP just said.

Just because you work on software does not make you an expert.

The game is fine.

Shut up and play it.

Nice first post, stallion. Him being a programmer and getting paid for it does in fact make him an expert. You may not like his opinion but he is a professional in his field and gave his professional opinion. Deal with it.

"shut up and play it" really? You sat at your computer had all the time in the world to craft your first post and that's the dreck you manage to profer? Wow. Welcome to the brave new world. "shut up and play it" that has to be one of the dumbest things I've seen in print in a while. Thanks for the laugh.

Nice post. Totally agree. Nice to hear a professional opinion over the juvenile clap trap. Maybe with enough noise a head or two will roll at 2K. Probably not but it's a nice thought.

I'm really getting fed up with this garbage.
 
I'm not saying that your experience doesn't give you an insight into this, because obviously it does. But the fact that you're not a game developer does however mean your insight on this fails you massively though. I develop games, now just in my flat but have worked in small teams and large ones, and have also developed non-game software in the past, both in my flat and working for large organisations so I have a personal insight into both of these arenas and I really really don't think people know how difficult it is to develop PC games.

You have MFC or .NET, oracle frontends, or web 2.0 applications, or practically any other non-game development, then that will work on practically EVERY PC in the world with little worries. If you're writing software for business clients then again, your target PCs and users are a lot more predictable. I'm not saying this is always the case, but there is no comparison really. It's why console games are generally more reliable than PC games. EVERY console is identical. By comparison it's a piece of cake.

PC Games on the otherhand are a living nightmare to develop. You could pump millions into QA but still not be able to test 1/100th of the possible configurations of video cards,OS's, system settings and processors that combinations of could for some reason or another cause fatal problems. On games that are built on existing technology this effect is mitigated with time,so you do get products that are reliable on most configurations, but they are very much standing on the shoulders of giants (using existing 3D tech or whatever) with good QA these games get lauded as being the antithesis of these kind of games, but the fact this game is built using completely new technology is overlooked by the consumers, even though they would be quick to complain if the same tech was milked to death.

People who cry foul when a selection of people have problems (who are, in all likelihood compared to the actual amount of people who bought the game worldwide, less than a percent of a percent) simply do not understand. It can't be predicted and QA can't just magically ensure there aren't hidden demons in the code ready to strike, no matter HOW long or HOW much money is spent on it. It's this understanding that makes all the ill-informed and reactionary feet stomping so infuriating to read.

Not to downplay what you do, programming is a hard job and requires a lot of talent regardless, but you have literally no idea the sheer gulf of difference between game development and business development. Especially since gameplay design is often an iterative process where software development tends to have more fixed goalposts. Sure features may need changes or extra development due to not being easy to use, or fast enough, or whatever. But again I found the potential for goal posts to move dramatically much more severely in the commercial games industry.

And dare I say it? AAA 3D game development is many orders more complicated than application or database programming. I have done both extensively, and this is fact. Hate to be blunt about it, but there you go. Sorry.

Lastly, and most importantly... it's 2K that are dictating release dates and whatnot, not Firaxis. I'm pretty sure it's not the coder's fault, the QA department's fault, or Sid's fault... It probably goes pretty far up the chain of 2K before the order on an immovable release date was made, and this will have been down to hundreds of reasons way beyond our possible understanding or awareness. To simplify it and say 'they should have waited two weeks' without any of the facts, and just to assume some kind of 'money grabbing greed' is wildly ignorant.

Look at Elemental's release. It was released before the release date, and was a buggy mess that makes complaints about Civ look laughable, to be honest. Add to that Stardock previously released the 'Charter' that said that everyone deserves a finished game out the box. How embarrassing!! Was that decision to release greed?

No. They clearly HAD to release it when they did, for whatever reason (probably financial) and they get dragged through the mud. I'm sure they knew the situation with the game when they released, so why didn't they just spend an extra six months sorting out all the issues? Well they couldn't, clearly, or they would have. Obviously.

Finally, let us not forget that QA from Firaxis were made redundant prior to the release of the game. The reason for this? Who knows. But obviously there is more going on here than fits into most people here's little cosy simple view of game development and you shouldn't be so quick to judge and cry foul. Certainly not at Firaxis.

Yeah, so Civ 5 could have done with a couple of weeks extra for testing and bug fixing. But most people seem to have pre-ordered the game. What difference does it make whether you have it with a few bugs, or whether you get it a couple of weeks later with less / no bugs? I'd rather have it sooner rather than later, frankly. If I had to wait another two weeks I'd probably go insane, I'd rather get a taste of the experience even if it's not initially perfect.

Just put it in a drawer and consider it an early beta, if you like, and come to it a couple of weeks later and pretend it's release day. I fail to see what the problem is? Like paying $60 and not getting what you want the millisecond you part with your money has never happened in the history of humanity and not been some massive scandal outside buggy games.

I played for 10 hours and found 5 confirmed bugs. WTF are you talking about?
 
The bottom line is that games have to be released at more or less a certain time in order to make financial sense. Gamers have demanded quite complex games for the past 15 or so years, slowly increasing year to year for most of that time. With price more or less constant and increased sales being offset by higher development costs, we have a trade-off between features and quality. The game won't sell without features, hence quality loses.


If we as gamers were able to change this, by say not buying buggy games, I'm afraid we would find mostly simpler games available, with only a very few blockbuster franchises delivering complex games.
 
In addition; why did they commit to a hard release date. This is the root cause.
 
Almost every publisher commit to hard release dates. It is very very rare to find one that allows their dev studios to delay a game. And only then is when the dev studio self publishess, has significant decision making power with the publisher, and/or has significant financial backing to continue development.

Remember, it is very likely that Firaxis was contractually bound to Take2 on when to release the game.
 
I played for 10 hours and found 5 confirmed bugs. WTF are you talking about?

I fail to see what you're misunderstanding here? Of course you did, you're one of the people complaining about them. What about the 50,000-200,000 or whatever that have never posted anything and have been perfectly happy and experienced no bugs? And as I said, I appreciate it probably needed another couple of weeks of time, I just fail to see how it's like some massive betrayal that renders the money you paid somehow null and void despite the fact if they did delay it two weeks you would have NO GAME to play right now, which is surely much worse than a slightly buggy game?
 
Almost every publisher commit to hard release dates. It is very very rare to find one that allows their dev studios to delay a game. And only then is when the dev studio self publishess, has significant decision making power with the publisher, and/or has significant financial backing to continue development.

Remember, it is very likely that Firaxis was contractually bound to Take2 on when to release the game.

There is no delay if there is no hard release date. Ask Toyota what happend to there quality reputation when they released vehicles too soon. Oh yeah, people died in those "beta" releases and people stopped buying there cars. CIV 6 no way in hell.
 
I fail to see what you're misunderstanding here? Of course you did, you're one of the people complaining about them. What about the 50,000 or so that have never posted anything and have been perfectly happy and experienced no bugs? And as I said, I appreciate it probably needed another couple of weeks of time, I just fail to see how it's like some massive betrayal that renders the money you paid somehow null and void despite the fact if they did delay it two weeks you would have NO GAME to play right now, which is surely much worse than a slightly buggy game?

He just wants to know why there are bugs in a fresh release. Unpossible! :lol:
 
I fail to see what you're misunderstanding here?

These are very obvious bugs. I can understand having some minor details that need to be fine tuned, but game play has been sacrificed. It's obvious by the outcry. It is undeniable.
 
I develop software, not games, but business software. Nonetheless, all software has a development process. Testing and QA is a HUGE part of the software development process. The fact that this piece of software was allowed to be released to the general public in the state that its in shows that it was rushed and the company needed to start making profits off of it.

Let me tell you, if I sent my code into production with this many bugs I would be fired the next day. If this game went through the proper avenues of FULL testing and QA then many of the issues should have come to light and been resolved. As it stands they havent.

To defend unfinished, unpolished software in hopes that it will be fixed in the future is unacceptable ANYWHERE but the gaming world. Consumers should not have to stand for it. I dont know why some of you sit there smiling while you're getting screwed.


Adobe Photoshop CS5 costs how much? And Civ5 costs how much? Office 2010 home and business costs how much? and civ5 costs how much? Exactly. How many large profile business softwares cost ~50 dollars?
 
There is no delay if there is no hard release date. Ask Toyota what happend to there quality reputation when they released vehicles too soon. Oh yeah, people died in those "beta" releases and people stopped buying there cars. CIV 6 no way in hell.

Can I have your stuff?

Oh wait wrong game....

By the way, your fault for not waiting for the release to see what the field experience is like. This is capitalism. The burden of knowledge is on the consumer, not the company.
 
There's something to be said for just lying back in your chair and letting the world breeze over you and not getting outraged óver a few bugs in a game, with all the much more bad things going on in the world today much more worthy of your outrage. It's just silly, really. Did you not get your nan that hip operation so you could buy this game or something? It baffles me why everyone's so angry about it considering it will be sorted out soon can't we all just have a bit of patience instead of acting like we've all been massively betrayed somehow.
 
I am more dissapointed in carry over of civ4. I was hoping for a huge step forward when the words "new gaming engine" where used. I am still fumbling around in a crappy gaming lobby with a 50/50 chance of having a playable game.
 
Actually I don't think the game has so many bugs in their real sense of word, since i didn't meet any in my 3 gaming sessions (except some minor things, I admit I am playing on GF9800 with DX9 so that definitely is most tested config i suppose at least from sys. requirements and i think better cards like 5xxx ati or 4xx nvidia can have bigger problems especially under DX11).
Definitely one of better functioning game releases. what worries me are design decisions that influence a lot of things and definitely influence for example AI.

AI is really bad. But to some extend I don't think it's fault of programmers, since designers made unrealistic assumptions about it.

But still better then the feelings then like for example ETW, WHO...those things I feeled like i was robbed. This time I just hope for some miracle with better scripted AI.
 
These are very obvious bugs. I can understand having some minor details that need to be fine tuned, but game play has been sacrificed. It's obvious by the outcry. It is undeniable.

Uh, I'm gonna go with no? Unless, as your later comment indicated, you are talking about multiplayer. And, really, who cares about multiplayer?
 
These are very obvious bugs. I can understand having some minor details that need to be fine tuned, but game play has been sacrificed. It's obvious by the outcry. It is undeniable.

Consider that bug fixes and changes can cause other bugs. Because something seems obvious to you, those problems could have been introduced the day before release for all you know and these can and do easily slip through the net. It's not necessarily like the problems were there since day one and the QA team somehow foolishly missed it for 6 months of testing.

As I say, an ignorance to how the process works means you make wildly incorrect assumptions on how unreasonable or unexpected these things are.
 
I develop software, not games, but business software. Nonetheless, all software has a development process. Testing and QA is a HUGE part of the software development process. The fact that this piece of software was allowed to be released to the general public in the state that its in shows that it was rushed and the company needed to start making profits off of it.

Let me tell you, if I sent my code into production with this many bugs I would be fired the next day. If this game went through the proper avenues of FULL testing and QA then many of the issues should have come to light and been resolved. As it stands they havent.

To defend unfinished, unpolished software in hopes that it will be fixed in the future is unacceptable ANYWHERE but the gaming world. Consumers should not have to stand for it. I dont know why some of you sit there smiling while you're getting screwed.

I am no programmer i am just some regular dude who is enjoying this game who does not even notice most of these bugs you are talking about. Also i bet their are millions of consumers out their who are like me who don't even notice the bugs and are enjoying playing the game.

so enlightenment me and tell me some of the bugs in the game and why I am getting screwed

Also business software and gaming software is completely different.
 
A number of people do care about it. Just because you do not does not mean it should be discounted.

I'm not saying it should be discounted, just suggesting you get some perspective is all. You must be fortunate that the biggest thing in life you have to worry about is a game having a few bugs.
 
Not to mention a 10-year release cycle. Blizzard is hardly perfect in other areas (I'll take steam 100 times over SC2's annoying/intrusive/buggy DRM).

Also, Civ 5 is one of the best releases I have seen in months. I see some problems, but nothing game breaking. I can play and enjoy the game with no major problems. That's really all I can ask for.

Being unable to end a 10 turn peace treaty after 40 turns isn't "gamebreaking"?

Lulwut.
 
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