A query re GoM3 for Shadowdale, Kev, Thunderfall, Stormerne, et al.

[Cactus Pete]

Kudos to Lucifer for getting the green in GoMIII. Conquest by 125BC is impressive, but doing it while developing a civilization score of 310 is spectacular!

I'm convinced that I'm ignorant of a critical bit of knowledge or strategy. I've looked at the GoMIII map and considered how I might possibly have equalled Lucifer's result. I think that, if all the huts opened right and I played with great agression and foresight, I might have the ability to finish by 125BC; but, I haven't a clue how to do that and still build up the population and/or build the wonders necessary to achieve a civilization score of 310.

I can't even come up with a working hypothesis. It's an interesting puzzle. I'm going to play GoMIV to grow population -- as long as I can stand the tedium -- and see if I can learn by doing.

But, I'm curious if Shadowdale or any of the other efficient population builders among the fanatics, such as Kev, Thunderfall, TimTheEnchanter, Leowind, Stormerne, and Goodbye_Mr._Bond, are consistently able to grow their score so high so early. If so, what is your tactic? What am I missing? Can you just give me a hint?

Of course, I'd love to here from Lucifer, if he's willing to give away the secrets of his success.

 

[stormerne]

Hi Cactus Pete. Well I can answer for myself only. First of all I don't consider myself a great player, just a good one. I know what my biggest weakness is and that's conducting offensive wars with early units. I also know what my biggest strength is and that's growing populations. So I consciously decided for this Emperor game I would keep fairly quiet until I had the means to take over the whole world in maybe thiry turns and that meant a large city base making Armor units.

If only you'd asked this question yesterday: within the last 24 hours I've deleted all my GOTM 3 saves except 1, 1000 and finish! But I can see enough from what's left to answer you.

My secret to a large population is simply lots of cities. Lots of early expansion. For example:
Year 1: I have 12 cities. Nearly all of my main island is colonised apart from the southern tip where the Sioux live. My biggest city is only size 5, the average is size 2. I have only 5 squares total in irrigation and 6 with roads so far. I have 4 settlers active, I have two cities already on the island NW of Trondheim. My triremes have scouted out more available land to the NE and found a long Zulu/Persian coastline to the E. The Zulus have the only wonder so far (Pyramids). I'm currently building the Great Wall and the Colossus.

So what I've done here is to build lots of settlers. Initial scouts uncover all the geography. Sometimes these scouts wait for a settler to arrive. A settler may be the second AND third things I build in each new city and only when I've absorbed all the scouted out territory do I build anything else. Thus I have only 1 barracks, 1 temple (both in Trondheim) and 1 city walls (city nearest Sioux) in all those cities, with 3 temples under construction.

Looking at the previous GOTM, #2, I had 14 cities in year 1, but that was prestarted for us. However, in the year 1000 I had 51 cities.

The secret of big population is early growth. Not in individual city size - that comes later - but in numbers of cities. (Remember it is easier to increase the size of small cities than large ones.) You have to grab as many good city sites as you can before the AI does. That means lots of early exploration on land and sea: anything that moves 2 and triremes. Building exploration wonders like Lighthouse also helps. In GOTM 2 I'd found all the major coastlines by year 1000, had engineers everywhere and was discovering tech every 3 turns under Communism.

And most cities are only lightly improved at first and produce at least two or three settlers before anything more esoteric than a temple. I control unhappiness by keeping the city population low by building settlers!

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<IMG SRC="http://www.anglo-saxon.demon.co.uk/stormerne/stormerne.gif" border=0>

 

[shadowdale]

Well I think there is one thing that I do differently from most other players and that is when I activate the Lux/growth period. I do that rather late, I usually keep all my cities on 12, and have two or three Engineers from each city doing all they can to cultivate the land, and then I rush buy all the Sewer systems and max my lux rate. So my score would probably never be so high that early - unless I had been rather lucky with huts and in a war or two!!! But my score in 1AD in GotM#3 was 267, so I might have been able to do it, but not if I was trying to get and early conquest win.

But as Stormerne said, it's the early expansion that makes your score high - the more cities the better. Stormerne said that in 1 AD the Sioux were still on his island - I know that when ever I encounter an AI civ I immidiatly destroy it - mostly with diplomats/spies because I don't build all that many military unites.

BTW Matrix played a joke on me nd TF by saying that somebody had already finished GotM#4 in 2200BC - now that is impossible................

<IMG SRC="http://forums.civfanatics.com/ubb/snipersmilie.gif" border=0>

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Veni Vidi Vici.

Coolbook:
Håkan Eriksson, Stormerne, vladmir_illych_lenin, Cunobelin Of Hippo, vanillacube.

[This message has been edited by shadowdale (edited May 07, 2001).]

 

[Matrix]

Originally posted by shadowdale:
But as Stormerne said, it's the early expansion that makes your score high - the more cities the better. Stormerne said that in 1 AD the Sioux were still on his island - I know that when ever I encounter an AI civ I immidiatly destroy it - mostly with diplomats/spies because I don't build all that many military unites.

But how do you get to so much money? !confused! I mean, to have so much money I'll have to raise me taxes to maximum, but I loose my science rate.

It appears I'm not a good player, but my tactic is always to research as fast as I can, then to use this advantage by attacking the enemy with my superior units. But if you use diplomats/spies, you don't need science.

Originally posted by shadowdale:
BTW Matrix played a joke on me nd TF by saying that somebody had already finished GotM#4 in 2200BC - now that is impossible................

I really never thought Thunderfall would fall for that. But then he told you too....ya, great.

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<IMG SRC="http://home.hetnet.nl/~maartencl/tmp/MatrixBW.gif" border=0>
<FONT size="1">Studying chemistry means: having fun, drinking beer, having more fun, drinking more beer, hang above the toilet and have a good night sleep!

And each time Pedro says: "Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrggh", I feel so good!!!</FONT s>

 

[Kev]

Not surprisingly, my strategy is not much different from Stormerne's or Shadowdale's. My one difference if you were to compare is that I probably put too much emphasis on getting Wonders - a technique I'll likely have to curtail a little bit if I ever have dreams of catching Shadowdale in the scores.

Obviously, early and plentiful settlers are key. I will have settlers build very few roads and almost zero irrigation until later in the game when I will hopefully have engineers. I want to get settlers to sites to make cities ASAP. Exceptions include some improvements around a science city or a settler waiting for a boat ride somewhere.

Again, where I differ is probably in wonder-grabbing. So many of the early wonders can be useful that I try to get every one that I can. With this in mind, my first 5 or 6 cities I designate as the wonder producers (with one picked out to be the science city). My order of building in these cities is
1. Warrior
2. Settler
3. Warrior
4. Temple (on higher levels)
5. Wonder
6. Wonder...
I use warriors as they a so cheap, help with martial law, and can hold up early against barbs with the Great Wall Wonder. I can usually produce a great deal, and with getting Hanging Gardens and (at times) the Oracle I can keep unhapiness to a minimum. Add in the Pyramids for good growth before We Love the ____ celebrations, the Great Wall for added defense and peacekeeping, and the Colossus for a science boost and it gives a great head start and makes getting the next batch of wonders even easier. There will always be a few that I don't get, but I can usually decide which ones they are (usually Lighthouse or Oracle or SunTzu's)

The cities outside of this group will produce various things:
- Fast military units if needed to remove a rival on my continent, exploration or to help defend the wonder cities.
- Caravans when I have Trade for routes (through the science city) and wonders.
- Diplomats for war or exploration.
- Many, many settlers. When I am unsure about what I should build in a city I'll always go for a settler or engineer.

With this, I can usually get to the top of the civ ladder and make a bee-line to Democracy and Steam Engine where I can get the statue, go fundy for some cash, and let the ironclads rule the seas and coastal cities. A civ with a capital on the water can be taken out rather quickly by some ironclads, a few units, a pile of diplomats and some cash.

Once that's done, I usually stay in Fundy for a short while to speed build harbors, aqueducts and sewers and swicth back to Democracy for the rest of the game and grow.

This is just the style that I've worked with over the years, and I admire greatly those of you who find a way to finish so early!! Like Stormerne, I find that early warfare can be difficult and will avoid it unless it's VERY early and I have a definite advantage.

Finishing the game in 125BC on emperor level is an amazing feat to me, and I would also like to read about how it was done.

Perhaps the player REALLY IS Lucifer

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Diplomacy - the art of
saying "Good Doggie"
until you can find a rock

 

[shadowdale]

Well Kev there might be something about wonders - I almost only build wonders that don't expire. There are a few exceptions - but normally wonders that expire are only build if that city doesn't have anything better to do.

And I NEVER EVER use fundamentalism, once I get Democracy I keep it for the rest of the game. And again - diplomats/spies are my primary weapon - the only ships I build are those that can transport my unites!!!

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Veni Vidi Vici.

Coolbook:
Håkan Eriksson, Stormerne, vladmir_illych_lenin, Cunobelin Of Hippo, vanillacube.

 

[Smash]

I think I know what you're cooking Cactus Pete and I have to agree.Experience tells me so.
I think you allready know...

 

[goodbye_mr_bond]

It's the early expansion that does it, as everyone says above. I also suck at early warfare, and will avoid early battles until I have Polytheism at least. But I never stop expanding. As was also mentioned before, it's not city size, but how much territory you control.

If I hadn't had such a disastrous start in the last game, I'd have finished much earlier too. As it was, I was forced to really develop my ass off just to make it in the top ten (first time I ever finished a bloodlust game with a full peace bonus!)After I finished my 'official' game, I went back and, trying my best not to gain from my knowledge of the map by play-acting what I might have done, finished around 1500AD. Don't remember the score, but I think it was like 80% with no attempt at developing at all other than the usual minimal war-time effort I always try to put in.

And Matrix, about the money thing: sounds to me like you're not pressing the other civs for tribute nearly as much as you could be...

 

[Cactus Pete]

You folks are both helpful as well as fanatical. I understand the benefits of rapid expansion. I was looking for some variation on this approach during the first 100 turns that has the potential to pile the people up before 1AD, as Lucifer managed. Anyone got any secrets to share along that particular line?

I can't know for sure, Smash. CIVII is a rich game. I lack your (and your fellow fanatics') experience in both playing and studying it, and without that considerable experience I can't rule out some original approach that's not at all obvious. . .like the ICS strategy. Thanks for appreciating my culinary creation.

 

[Kev]

One suggestion for those first 100 turns is to rush buy settlers all over the place. With money you can get from tributes and conquest (later from trade), you can rush-buy settlers every time a city reaches size 2. A city can get to size 2 fairly quickly, and if you manage to capture the Pyramids even quicker (once it goes back to size 1, I believe that the food box will be half full - unlike a brand new city starting out).

If you have bronze working and writing - two pretty early techs - then incremental rush-building can be great. Start building a warrior, and, when you are ready, pay to finish it. Then switch to a phalanx and do the same. Then a diplomat and then a settler (if you get horseback riding then horsemen can take the place of diplomats I believe). This will save you some money. Again, just wait until the city is size 2 or larger - I've made the stupid mistake of rush building settlers in a size 1 city and that's a pain.

Another thought is to use "wandering nomads" to build cities as well. I've heard talk that it is extremely rare to get a second nomad on the same continent, but if you use one to build a city then the possibilities are better to get another.

Man, I went and looked back at the earlier posts here. We ARE fanatical aren't we?

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Diplomacy - the art of
saying "Good Doggie"
until you can find a rock

 

[oryx]

Originally posted by Kev:
One suggestion for those first 100 turns is to rush buy settlers all over the place. With money you can get from tributes and conquest (later from trade), ...

I'm foggy about how one demands tribute. The only way I remember ever having been given tribute is by refusing to make peace. Is there some other way? There doesn't seem to be an explicit menu option for it.



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"There is no tiddle-taddle nor pibble-pabble in Pompey's camp."

 

[Leowind]

Quickly, my approach was completely opposite. Having never played a blood lust game before, I went totally after the warfare side just to see if I could do it. I got the high score by finishing with a pet city, and THEN running up my score with Demo and celebrating. I'm still learning, and was extremely surprised to see how high I placed in the rankings.

 

[TimTheEnchanter]

This was my first real growth game, so I don't know how much you'll learn from me. A lot was just trying out things I had read around here.

My growth went in two spurts. I filled the Home continent with cities, and had a few scattered around the south islands, mostly from a few advanced tribes I had found. This gave me about 35-40 cities when I switched to republic.

Once in Republic I focused on getting We Love days. It took longer than I had expected, because I didnt have enough trade. I had to get more improvements and carvans going (all dumped on the Colossus/SSC to get high trade values in outlying cities) for more happy faces.

Democracy really helped by cutting corruption. Once I was ready I went to Fundamentalism (from statue) and rushbuilt a bunch of ironclads and diplomats, then wiped out all but the Zulu capital in a few turns. After that I went back to democracy and repeated the process on my new cities - rushbuying caravans, and improvements for another round of celebrations.

I got to a point where most things I built came more from gold than from sheilds. Almost everything was at least partially rushbuilt.

The one thing that would have helped me, is if I had built more settlers early both for expansion and for tile improvements. I was too afraid to cut into my shields and food, but in retrospect it would have been worth the investment.

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DEATH awaits you all...with nasty, big, pointy teeth.

 

[Knigget]

I think the only way too get 310 points and conquer the world by 125bc is to research republic while you destroy the others. Maybe relying on elephants to do the killing and when almost done celebrate you cities under republic.

I have no idea how to get 310 points before 1ad without celebrating. Even if you have two wonders, your average city size is 2 and all citizens are happy, you will need almost 70 cities.

It might be possible, but you will need very, very much luck...

 

[Thunderfall]

Originally posted by Leowind:
Quickly, my approach was completely opposite. Having never played a blood lust game before, I went totally after the warfare side just to see if I could do it. I got the high score by finishing with a pet city, and THEN running up my score with Demo and celebrating. I'm still learning, and was extremely surprised to see how high I placed in the rankings.

whoa! I don't know Leowind is still around!