A Semi-Immortal Walkthrough

[cabert]

I win cultural up to monarch (2.08 version), and I often need to go to war.

what do I say, you are in a war !

But later (after 1200 AD, when teching along the cultural path), I tend to limit wars to phoney/defensive/limited wars. What's the deal? Having a friendly neighbour and a cautious faraway opponent is better than having 2 pleased opponents, including a neighbour.
When going for cultural i try to have a friendly neighbour, and that not counting too much on religion.

 

[lilnev]

Round 3

<Miles Davis, "Sketches of Spain>

The aim is a cultural victory. But first, Stalin must needs be dealt with. My spearman dealt with the elephant south of Yaroslavl. The one east of St. Peterburg killed an archer before I took him down in revenge. Now, for Vladivostok:

One hwacha gave up his life to weaken the defending longbow, and the rest was trivial. Here's the trade screen on which I'm keeping an eye. If his offer starts to drop, I'll know he's working on Paper himself.

A few turns later, Brennus comes back to the bargaining table. I guess I'm no longer "too advanced" for him. However, Kublai now has Philosophy, so I think I want to keep my Paper monopoly for a few more turns.

The following turn Kublai's offer dropped by about half. Huh? That was dramatic. I traded Paper to Brennus for MC+250, then this was the best I could get out of Kublai:

I gifted CoL to Toku, in the hopes of gifting Paper next turn to get him up to pleased long enough that I could trade CS for Feudalism, and perhaps even open borders. But alas, he couldn't wait a turn for the benefits of globalization.

Damn, there goes the neighborhood. I'll take down Smolensk (refounded by the Russians) first, then sue for peace with Stalin. One bit of good news: I did get a GS to finish Education. I have it first, so I have a good shot at Liberalism. No one will be bribed into war against Toku.

He's brought a lot of horse archers, so I whip up some spears and walls in St Petersburg. I won't be too surprised if I lose it, though.

960 AD, still holding. He wasted some time pillaging and shelling my walls, allowing me to reinforce with more northern troops. I counterattacked and got a couple of good rolls with hwachas to wipe out his first stack. Reinforcements have arrived. It's going to be bloody. Kublai is almost finished with Ed (he'll now only trade 210 gold for it). I traded Philo to Brennus for 220, which should allow me to run the research slider high enough to win the race.

A few turns later and I've run Toku off my lands, but my army is depleted. If I want to take out Stalin, it'll take some rebuilding. I've been whipping fairly agressively again. A bit of infrastructure (granaries and temples) towards the eventual cultural push, but mostly hwachas, spears, and swords.

to be continued....

 

[lilnev]

With two turns to go (at 100%) on Liberalism, but an empty treasury, I hit up Kublai for the 110 gold I need to beat him. Always happy to help. The fool.

I get Liberalism, choosing Nationalism. A crucial decision:

<Black Sabbath, "Volume 4" on old-school magnetic tape)

I decide to take the deal. Toku's pissed me off enough, I can live with his "You brought in a war ally" diplo penalty. Kublai will probably trade his new knowledge to Brennus for Gunpowder and Music. But I can't trade with Brennus anyway, because he thinks I'm too advanced. The biggest frustration in this game has been the lack of trade opportunities. I'm doing the best I can under the circumstances.

I switch to OR and Police State. I need the former to spam missionaries, plus it's Brennus' pet civic so I'll stay in it long-term. I don't plan to stay in Police State for long, but I need to bulk up to take down Stalin (who, persistant bugger that he is, has refounded the last city that I razed). Even with just a couple of cities, he's too dangerous once I turn research off. Speaking of which, I've turned research off. Soon I'll switch to US to start rush-buying missionaries, temples, cathedrals. Hoping to trade for Music and Drama, and perhaps as far as Banking.

Stalin is hoarding 4 workers in or around his newest sacrificial city (Orenburg). That's just too tempting. WAR!!!!

War weariness is really a pain, even in Police State. I've built a large enough army, finally. Time for Stalin to lose his new capital:

<Opeth, "Blackwater Park". Swedish death metal at its finest>

I storm Rostov without particular problems and move on Stalin's last city. There's been nothing from Toku. I'm hoping Kublai is unmerciful.

Popped a Great Prophet. I wanted another GS to work on Printing Press. Oh well, I'll settle him in Wonsan.

My builds so far:
2 settlers, 5 workers, 2 workboats, 4 missionaries
4 granaries, 4 barracks, 3 libraries, 1 walls, 1 courthouse, 3 temples, 1 monastery
1 National epic, 1 Oracle, 1 Great Library
2 warriors, 3 archers, 8 spearmen, 13 swords, 3 maces, 27 hwachas
(most of the workers and all of the missionaries/temples have been recent, as I gear up for cultural)

And they call me a warmonger. 3 libraries! Look at 'em. And a courthouse.

Meanwhile my workers have been safely terraforming. Once war weariness is lifted, I'll grow as fast as I can onto those cottages.

And finally....

Stalin is dead. I razed the last city. Toku's great general has died in combat, and Kublai birthed a new one, so I'm hopeful. I haven't sought peace, on the theory that Kublai is more likely to maintain the war if he has an ally. Plus we're up to +3 for "mutual military struggle".

Revolt to US and Caste System (I'll want it eventually to run extra artists in Seoul -- conserve on anarchy). Except I did it one turn too soon, and now Rostov can't whip away its unhappy folks. Oh well.

I'm going to call it a night. Stalin is dead, Toku is reeling. Hopefully Brennus, Kublai and I can live in peace while I win. Missionary production is in full swing, temples to follow. Some summary shots:

Assuming Toku stays down, this should go well. His little incursion cost me some time, and it could become a tight race again Brennus' space ship. Hopefully <crosses fingers> it'll be peaceful from here on out. Until next time....

peace,
lilnev

 

[LosBlack]

you don't seem at all concerned that Brennus will attack you (or attack an ally and drag you along with him). his power is off the chart. what's to keep him from picking on the weaker civs next door? are you planning on building up any military defenses? nice game so far!

 

[patagonia]

Since Kublai's swapped to free religion you can safely convert to Hinduism and lock Brennus in as an ally for the rest of the game. At friendly (which he'll easily be with religion and civic bonuses) he'll likely sign a defensive pact which would probably protect you from anyone else who survives to get frisky.

Try to get drama and music before you run out of techs to trade - Brennus will stop fearing you're too advanced once friendly so that could help. It'll be interesting to see if your culture push can beat his spaceship construction. Actually, if Brennus were to beat-down on Kublai, we could see the unusual scenario of an AI getting a domination win!

 

[Godel]

Great game lilnev. Congrats on getting to liberalism first. For a cultrural victory isn't it bets to have nine cities? You only have 8. Is there another spot for a city?

 

[cabert]

Great game lilnev. Congrats on getting to liberalism first. For a cultrural victory isn't it bets to have nine cities? You only have 8. Is there another spot for a city?

I was thinking the exact same thing!
I would have kept the last russian city for this.

 

[Guardian_PL]

Bravo for wiping Stalin (dirty scumbag he is, that's all) from the face of the planet, good job! As far as I can see, Your start is not to be envied but You're doing great. May I ask why You're not hindu yet? Brennus is somewhat religious nut, I can have +8 for religion with him, that surely can help secure borders and make some more friends on Your continent, now when You finally have some free land.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

At this period and difficulty, it's more important to not piss off anyone than to try to get what small benefits you could get from trading with a friendly partner. Besides, the AI's should all adopt free religion soon.

 

[lilnev]

you don't seem at all concerned that Brennus will attack you (or attack an ally and drag you along with him). his power is off the chart. what's to keep him from picking on the weaker civs next door? are you planning on building up any military defenses?

In my experience, Brennus isn't really the type to go after his friends. He's up to about +7 pleased -- Open borders, resources, fair trades, peace, wise civics -- and if I take patagonia's excellent suggestion, I think I can make him into my B.F.F. (best friends forever).

Since Kublai's swapped to free religion you can safely convert to Hinduism and lock Brennus in as an ally for the rest of the game. At friendly (which he'll easily be with religion and civic bonuses) he'll likely sign a defensive pact which would probably protect you from anyone else who survives to get frisky.

That's an excellent suggestion. I missed it when Kublai switched out of Buddhism, but I'll get on it now. I was deliberately without religion for a long time (while religions were split). It was just an oversight (sloppy) that I wasn't paying attention when Kublai went Free.

For a cultrural victory isn't it best to have nine cities? You only have 8. Is there another spot for a city?

On a standard map, that's true, because each cathedral requires 3 temples (and I would have kept the last Russian city). On a small map, only two temples are needed for each cathedral.

peace,
lilnev

 

[Guardian_PL]

Besides, the AI's should all adopt free religion soon.

Yeah, right, especially Brennus
I mean, there is a point of having free religion (other continent relations and research boost), but atm I would personally befriend myself with Celts. They are BIG. Brennus can be very helpful as a friend, or very troublesome as an enemy. I'd pick first option

 

[lilnev]

Round 4

Well I found out why Brennus won't trade....

"We fear you are becoming too advanced" in fact has exactly zero to do with how advanced you are. "You have acquired too many techs in trades," would be far more accurate. Here's a post by blake from another thread:

WFYABTA is caused by one thing and one thing alone - the number of techs you have received in trade. It doesn't matter how much or little they cost, it doesn't matter if multiple techs are traded in a single deal, the only thing which matters is the number of techs.

I had to laugh cynically when I saw trades for fishing and meditation and I thought to myself "You guys have NO clue how WFYABTA works and are going to get SO screwed by it later". Most people don't how it works.

In shotr you have to ration out your tech trades, trade only for expensive techs, don't bother with tacking on cheap techs - avoid those "freebies" like the plague, they'll cost you thousands of beakers in the long run. You have something like 10 tech trades until industrial, you do get more trades made available as the game progresses and the WFYABTA threshold does vary greatly by personality, Mansa Musa being most infamous for not caring about it.

Now, WFYABTA can be overridden by friendly relationships, techs traded with friendlies still count against WFYABTA but you can at least trade with the friendly. So basically WFYABTA can be managed by tech trade rationing and relationship building. But once you have it, you can't get rid of it, just avoid frivolous trades (ie trading for Divine Right is one less trade you can make...).

Moral of the story: don't accept cheap techs like Fishing in trade! If someone offers you CoL and Fishing for your Metal Casting, make a counter-offer -- just CoL, please. Else you'll end up stuck in the mid-game, like me, way behind and "too advanced" to catch up.

<"The Louis Armstrong Collection" from Excelsior>

I trade Liberalism to Brennus for measly money, but a diplo boost. As suggested by the readers, I also switch to Hinduism. Kublai has gone to Free Religion, so there's no penalty. It not only helps my relations with Brennus, but adds happiness and +25% building production. Missionaries and temples. A few courthouses, replacement fishing boats, etc. Pretty dull, no screen shots. I turn research back on for Music and most of Drama, as I won't be able to trade for them. Then Brennus finally reaches friendly. I end the war with Toku (getting the rest of Drama. D'oh, should have thought of that before) and ask Brennus for a defensive pact. He agrees! Good times. Still, I don't put a whole lot of stock in it. At some point he'll switch to Free Religion, and without the shared faith he may drop to pleased and cancel it. Wonsan and Moscow are working on Mandirs.

1370 AD, I pop a GS and turn up research for a few turns to get Printing Press. Once Seoul grows large enough, I'll run artists there, and hopefully get GAs from here on out.

Religion is spreading nicely. Temples are underway.

This phase of the game really doesn't lend itself well to interesting screenshots.

1585 and I finally switch to Free Speech and turn the culture slider up. Here's the three cities:

After building courthouses everywhere, enough temples, and the Forbidan Palace in St. Petersburg, everywhere builds wealth except the cultural cities, which are still finishing up buildings. Wonsan trails, but it's got the Hermitage. I think once its towns grow up it'll be fine. Defensive pact with Brennus is still going strong, Kublai still significantly pleased. Now it's my culture against Brennus' spaceship.

1665 AD, Toku becomes a vassal of Brennus. No more worries there. He was pretty pathetic anyway. Not much to do at this point except hit return.

Well that's disappointing. He's built just about all of the Wonders. I'll catch him, though.

1740 AD. Brennus has tanks. I've popped one GA, plus a GS. I wish I could burn down the Great Library so it would stop polluting my pool. I build the HE in Seoul for its GA point. I hold on to the GS, in case I pop a prophet (~10% chance), I can start a golden age. An earlier GS already built the academy in Wonsan for its 4 culture.

Islam has spread to my lands. I start spreading it and building temples. Still a lot of turns to go.

1812 AD. Brennus completes the Apollo program.
1816 AD. I birth another GA.
1828 AD. Brennus completes Three Gorges.

Resource trades (mostly exporting happiness; I'm a bit health-limited, actually) and building wealth allow me to run upwards of 90% culture.

Coming along fine....

1860 AD. A Prophet is born. I paint the Mona Lisa twice in Wonsan, then launch a golden age. Not long now.
1872 AD. Seoul becomes legendery.
1876 AD. Wonsan becomes legendery.
1882 AD. Moscow becomes legendery.

Brennus ended up with 5 casings and a cockpit. Not particularly close. Just out of curiosity, I switched into teching mode and kept playing. Brennus would have launched in 1913.

Well that's all for this time. I may try this (or similar) again, after the holidays. Hopefully with the opportunity for a militaristic victory. Nuthin' against cultural, I just enjoy a good fight more. I've attached some of the save points, in case someone wants to see more detail and/or play a parallel game. Meant to do that earlier, and then forgot.

peace,
lilnev

 

[Eggolas]

Outstanding! Just watching you win an Immortal game via culture gives me the shakes. Really, an excellent thread and one with just a plethora of lessons from an obviously, very skilled player.

Thanks.

 

[obsolete]

Ok I learned someething. About the AI thinking you are too advanced, I didn't know it had to do with Total # of techs. I'll try and tweak my game plan differently next time. Does anyone have algorithms or charts of this listed somewhere for exactly how many is too much in respect to relations?

 

[Godel]

Congrats lilnev on a great game.

 

[acidsatyr]

Nice game.
Watch that M. Infantry in the last picture!
Brennus could achieve domination victory himself if he was just a little bit "smarter". Incredibly stupid.

 

[Guardian_PL]

Nice job, congratulations!
I'm looking forward to another live-action Civilization lessons...

 

[futurehermit]

Great job!

 

[cabert]

Just one question.
What happened to the Great Scientist?
I noticed moscow finished last. Maybe an academy there would have gained you one turn?

 

[lilnev]

Yeah, the "too advanced" bit was news to me too. And, I think, kind of stupid, but they didn't ask my opinion. I don't know any more of the details than what I copied from Blake above. The first link in http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=161282 has an excel chart of leader traits for vanilla. There's a column called NoTechTradeTreshhold, with all leaders having a 5 or 10 except Mansa who's 20, so that might be part of it.

Brennus could have slaughtered me easily at any point. Thanks to co-religion, favorite civic, and ages of trade/resources/open borders/defensive alliance bonuses, he "chose" to let me win.

The GS joined the prophet to launch a Golden Age. He might have been better spent as an academy, I'm not sure.

peace,
lilnev