Monarch Tokugawa Shadow Game

[Izuul]

If you want to learn about economic stuff, I'd recommend chopping the river grass forests around Bibracte into infrastructure and then cottaging those tiles. Probably move the palace to that city at some point. You want to get some libraries soon too.

 

[StillAFox]

I'm on turn 85 now, still 5 cities since maintenance is a nightmare. I was able to trade alphabet for a whole bunch of other techs, including iron working (iron on the PH in the cap).
I have 2 scientists working in the cap, and still very low happy cap everywhere, so I'll prioritize getting the fur hooked up. Not sure if oracle is still worth going for here at turn 85 without priesthood (though I think I can get it in 2 turns).
Would currency be the next tech with all the cities I want to settle, or should I go for code of laws for the courthouses, or try to get literature for Great Library?

Spoiler :

Unfortunately there are no resources up north.

 

[sampsa]

I'm curious what the plan on immortal would have been with this start. It doesn't look like there was really much I could have done outside of the axe rush (unless there happens to be iron somewhere).

Construction with 4 cities. Copper/iron doesn't matter really.

 

[sampsa]

Didn't you make fun of BigBamboo for advocating in favour of Construction rushes, though ?

No.

 

[notslin]

Iron Working is not a big prize, and this is why going Alpha is wrong.
You should either secure happy cap (Pyramids, Monarchy, or then why not Oracle), or military to further expansion (HBR), or, in some cases, just pure production (Maths).

I was watching some videos (Lain I think), and I realized that as a beginner, I would trade as much as I could (unless I thought there was a risk of WFYBTA).

I figured that "trading is a win-win, so why not do it as much as you can (ignoring WFYBTA)?" From that beginner perspective, Alpha seems like a great tech.

But watching his play, it seems like it's often fine to delay trading, as long as you don't lock yourself out completely, if it gives you a better chance of getting the highest value tech. You have to be less indiscriminate and more deliberate it appears.

In this case, I guess increasing happy cap lets you work more cottages, while iron working does nothing if the economy is bad.

 

[notslin]

Construction with 4 cities. Copper/iron doesn't matter really.

On immortal, I think if you went BW before pottery, an axe rush was possible. Because you could place the second city the way it was done here. I don't know if that tech path was optimal though.

 

[StillAFox]

I'll try rewinding to the moment I eliminated Boudicca. I'll probably make a quick detour to hunting (gotta get some happiness) before going towards priesthood for the oracle, I don't see any industrious leaders so I think I have a good shot.

One of the reasons I often go alphabet is because, in more peaceful games, I often reach a point in some cities where I don't have anything to build and end up building units that I delete or I build too many workers.

 

[Fippy]

Imo you don't have to replay so many turns, on Monarch you are in good shape with Alpha too.
Those guys can be taken out with just agg. Axes still if you want.
Axes are comfortable 2 pop whips, whip one and get 2 basically with overflow.

 

[StillAFox]

Reached 1AD, went Jewish to keep Lincoln happy. I seem to be in a pretty dominant spot, but feel like my science has some room for improvement. I decided to go calendar due to having numerous calendar resources and so I can get Mausoleum. I'm thinking the next tech goal is either literature, currency, or civil service. I feel this is the stage of the game where I sort of just do whatever, often building a bunch of wonders (Mausoleum, TGL, Taj) to get a long golden age and switch to caste + pacifism to make a push for lib and get a merchant to get some gold to upgrade elephants for a cuirassier attack.
Strangely, it's 1AD and the mids still haven't gone yet.

Spoiler :

Also, barb galleys are literally the worst...

 

[a pen-dragon]

went Jewish to keep Lincoln happy

That is not a valid reason to go for it. Lincoln is weak, on the other side of the continent and peaceful. Anyway, whatever you choose to stick with medium term should be spread around, such that all relevant cities have it.

Also, barb galleys are literally the worst...

Barbs can not spawn on any tile you see or that is within 2 tiles of one of your units. Thus strategically placing units can prevent them (including galleys) from spawning.

Mines are bad mkay?

Highlighting this, because you do love mines. What will the snow-hill mine do for Tokyo? What does the tundra hill one do? Workboats can be whipped and after that you have food to whip whatever you want, thus the mines are really low priority. OTOH Kyoto is working unimproved tiles. At this point in the game whenever an old city is working unimproved land tiles you know you mismanaged your workers. A few cottages in Kyoto would have been much more helpful than mines you will not be working in the near future.

Also Osaka and Bibracte are working mines when cottages are available and are only building research. Keep in mind that cottages grow and thus any turn not working a cottage is basically one turn of the yield of a town lost due to delayed upgrades. This means that cottages are far better tiles to work than mines, except when you really need to finish some production quickly, and even then maybe not, due to lower food delaying possible whips.

I seem to be in a pretty dominant spot, but feel like my science has some room for improvement.

Yes you are, yes there is. Delaying building at best mediocre cities would help. (Satsuma, and the one east of it) Even if someone where to threaten to settle it, you could let them develop the cities while you prepare to conquer them.

I'm thinking the next tech goal is either literature, currency, or civil service.

They are all fine. I would go lit->CS and hope an AI has currency for trade by then. The earlier you get TGL and the national epic the better, due to getting started earlier on great people. A few GS are really useful when going for Lib. CS will ofc be really helpful with your nice capital.

get a long golden age and switch to caste + pacifism to make a push for lib and get a merchant to get some gold to upgrade elephants for a cuirassier attack.

Solid plan, but not the only option. Elepult into the Germans or Babylonians is an option. Longbows are not that much of a problem for this.

 

[StillAFox]

I decided to go the cuirassier route. I find my cuirassier attacks either just flat out dominate or get worn down quickly so I want to make sure I'm doing them efficiently. It's 800 AD, I'm ahead in tech, got the wonders I wanted, and my GS just spawned. I'm not sure whether to bulb education or start a golden age and go nationalism for Taj. I'm also not sure at what point to start producing elephants. I usually start around when I'm researching lib.

Spoiler :

GNP seems solid

This is also around the time where I'm running out of tiles to improve and I usually just build roads and automate my workers at this point. It's too early to get windmills and workshops, so I guess that leaves roads and any remaining improvements + chops. What should I be doing with them now?

 

[StillAFox]

Highlighting this, because you do love mines. What will the snow-hill mine do for Tokyo? What does the tundra hill one do? Workboats can be whipped and after that you have food to whip whatever you want, thus the mines are really low priority. OTOH Kyoto is working unimproved tiles. At this point in the game whenever an old city is working unimproved land tiles you know you mismanaged your workers. A few cottages in Kyoto would have been much more helpful than mines you will not be working in the near future.

I find sometimes I just go on autopilot and make the nearest improvement and forget to fix the tiles my cities are working. I definitely need to stop doing that.

 

[Izuul]

You almost never want to work 3H tundra or desert mines. Even 4H PH mines are situational. You might work those in a high production city that you don't want to whip, or maybe temporarily to finish a build or let whip anger cool, but food is typically stronger than raw hammers so that makes grass mines a good bit stronger than plains mines. That river grass mine at Kyoto is a nice tile and should've been improved and worked.

And then there's Tokyo.. That city should have a lighthouse and probably should never work anything except the seafood and coast tiles. Whip the things you need to build there. Maybe the PH mine occasionally to finish a build, but 2F2C tiles are going to be alot better than 0F3H mines.

 

[a pen-dragon]

This is also around the time where I'm running out of tiles to improve and I usually just build roads and automate my workers at this point. It's too early to get windmills and workshops, so I guess that leaves roads and any remaining improvements + chops. What should I be doing with them now?

Roads are important in any war, you want to be able to get your troops where they need to be in the fastest way possible. Beyond early rushes, when borders have settled, that means having roads along the entire front.

Btw, I disagree about it being too early to windmill. There are mines you will rarely be working and windmilling them provides better food for whipping.

If your workers have nothing to do they can scout.

Looking at your save, any city that has seafood should have a lighthouse, a good time is right after the granary. Kagoshima and Tolosa should whip one ASAP.

Also Bibracte has TGL and NE, making it an ideal city to run scientists. They should replace both mines. (Note that this setup is bad for any other type of great person, due to the free scientists)

Going Nationalism now is best, as you can profit the most form the Taj by completing it as early as possible and making as much of your research as possible in a GA. You have ample time to get another GS before the Taj is even close to being completed, thus IMHO the current one should bulb Edu. Note that you get an additional turn of GA if you complete the Taj in one. This will get you a 25 turn GA, providing easily a few great people (I would say 8 are not too hard, but would require a bit of focus.). (mostly merchants for upgrades)

As upgrading one elephant to a cuir costs 140 , one merchant corresponds to roughly 10 elephants. You should have however many elephants you want to upgrade ready when discovering gunpowder.

You should also spread irrigation to your farm resources with CS.

 

[StillAFox]

So the second I hit Military Tradition, Freddy and Hammurabi just decided to become my vassals making the game an absolute cakewalk (I actually managed to get beaten to Taj by a turn). Got my fastest ever victory at 1410 AD (by 10 years) and 2nd highest score.

Spoiler :

Near the end I just put all my cities on cuirassiers since I knew it was over.

This shadow game was definitely helpful, thanks everyone!

I do wish I had a less aggressive start though, I struggle a lot more when I'm doing a more passive game with an engineering or cuirassier push off of like 5-6 cities or when I do a construction rush. After taking out Boudicca and getting her good land it was easy to snowball.

I feel like the biggest takeaways here are to put more consideration into different tech paths, stop being lazy with workers, and prioritize food and commerce even more than I feel like I do.

 

[notslin]

So, in each Era, there are a number of techs that you want. And the role they play is they let you increase the city count you can sustain and propel you to the next Era.
In the Ancient Era, those techs are Pottery and Writing, which allow you to sustain 5ish cities.
In the Classical Era, those techs are Monarchy, Mathematics, Currency, Code of Laws <-- that's a whole bunch of them and they allow to sustain 8+ cities.
Medieval, you get Civil Service, Philosophy, Music and you can certainly go past 12 cities.

Interesting analysis, appreciate it!

For Classical Era, Monarchy and Currency are often priorities -- Monarchy for happy cap, and Currency for trade route commerce and building wealth. Mathematics and Code of Laws seem less pressing, though. Mathematics is of course very useful -- nice for chops and an (often requierd) prereq Currency, CS and (if needed) Construction. Code of Laws is good if you need a couple courthouses. Hopefully I'm not missing a reason Mathematics and Code of Laws are priorities in that era.

 

[notslin]

I do wish I had a less aggressive start though, I struggle a lot more when I'm doing a more passive game with an engineering or cuirassier push off of like 5-6 cities or when I do a construction rush. After taking out Boudicca and getting her good land it was easy to snowball.

(Not the most experienced player here but) IMHO the start -- high production capital, close neighbors, not a lot of food to get a lot of good cities -- suggested an early rush because it would be hard to develop economically for a rush after Construction.