A thought on Unit Templates

[QES]

I have some thoughts on how to supplement the current template system. That which is already ingame is in italics.

Deamon:
* Fire Resistance (noted by Nikis-Knight)
* Pillage 4x as fast (like hitting the pillage button 4 times, Possible?)
* +10% City Attack
* +10% City Defence

Dragon:
* Immune to Magic (already in?)
* Immune to Fire (already in?)
* +50% Vs Melee, Cavalry, Seige (give a bonus to Grigori Dragonslayers to compensate)
* -50% vs Heros

Dwarven:
* Double Moves in Hills
* Fortification max percentage at 50% (normally 25%)

Elven:
* Double Moves in Forests
* +1 Visability in Forest Tiles

Undead:
* No maintenance cost.
* Don't make people feel safe.
* Effected by the destroy undead spell.
* Immune to spells that only effect the living (charm person, wither, domination, etc).
* Immune to disease and lycanthropy.
* Ability to learn some special promotions (fear, though I would like a few more of these).
* "Tough" - Unit always does damage per combat round as though it was at full strength.


Golem:
* Immune to spells that only effect the living (charm person, wither, domination, etc).
* Immune to disease and lycanthropy.
* Never promotes.
* "Tough" - Unit always does damage per combat round as though it was at full strength.

Nomad:
* Double Moves in Desert
* +40% defence in Desert (desert tiles have a standard -25% defence)
* +15% Withdraw Chance

Werewolf:
* The Werewolf promotion is only avaiable to Baron Duin Halfmorn, as he starts with it. The Baron is a World Unit that can be trained when the player researchers the Feral Bond tech.
* Every unit killed by the Baron (or other unit with Werewolf promotion) has a chance of becoming a Ravenous Werewolf with the Werewolf promotion in control of the player who owns the Baron.
* The % chance of getting a Ravenous Werewolf after each battle is determined by the number of werewolfs on the map, so the more werewolfs the less chance of getting a new one.
* Ravenous Werewolfs can become stronger Blooded Werewolf after a battle, and Blooded Werewolves can become powerful Greater Werewolves.

Animal: (suggested by Niki'sKnight to be included in list)
* Unable to Enter Borders (if barbarian)
* Don't make people feel safe
* Can be Subdued



I personally like the "tough" thing kael had mentioned a few thread/posts back. Golems and Undead would be far more appealing to use if they always had a nasty habbit of damaging the enemy at full capasity. Werewolves would also be nifty with it. They'll still die of course, but when they do it, the amount of damage they had taken in the fight, wont matter. Meaning if they lose, the other guy will always be hurt more, and if they win, they'll be hurt less.

Any other thoughts? Addtions? Even perhaps a new Template suggestion?

-Qes

 

[Maniac]

Doesn't Demon have the same characteristics as Undead (except being affected by the Destroy Undead spell)?

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Deamon:
* Pillage 4x as fast (like hitting the pillage button 4 times, Possible?)
* +10% City Attack
* +10% City Defence

Maybe remove the +10% city defense. Not sure if it fits. Increasing they strength by 30% or something when they're in a city with the demon's altar, though...

Dragon:
* Immune to Magic (already in?)
* Immune to Fire (already in?)
* +50% Vs Melee, Cavalry, Seige
* -50% vs Heros

Ah, I like the -50% against heroes. Maybe turn down the +50% against melee, though, considering that it would make grigori dragon slayers useless.

Dwarven:
* Double Moves in Hills
* Fortification max percentage at 50% (normally 25%)

Sounds interesting.

Elven:
* Double Moves in Jungle, New, Ancient and Standard Forests
* Invisable in Any Forest/Jungle

Too powerful, in my opinion. Also, keep in mind that they get no bonuses for jungles as far as I know.

Undead:
* No maintenance cost.
* Don't make people feel safe.
* Effected by the destroy undead spell.
* Immune to spells that only effect the living (charm person, wither, domination, etc).
* Immune to disease and lycanthropy.
* Ability to learn some special promotions (fear, though I would like a few more of these).
* "Tough" - Unit always does damage per combat round as though it was at full strength.

Yeah, that would be nice.

Golem:
* Immune to spells that only effect the living (charm person, wither, domination, etc).
* Immune to disease and lycanthropy.
* Never promotes.
* "Tough" - Unit always does damage per combat round as though it was at full strength.

I'm not sure if it would be as good there.

Nomad:
* Double Moves in Desert
* +40% defence in Desert (desert tiles have a standard -25% defence)
* +15% Withdraw Chance

I suppose it would add flavor. I can't think of any reason to object to it.

Werewolf:
* The Werewolf promotion is only avaiable to Baron Duin Halfmorn, as he starts with it. The Baron is a World Unit that can be trained when the player researchers the Feral Bond tech.
* Every unit killed by the Baron (or other unit with Werewolf promotion) has a chance of becoming a Ravenous Werewolf with the Werewolf promotion in control of the player who owns the Baron.
* The % chance of getting a Ravenous Werewolf after each battle is determined by the number of werewolfs on the map, so the more werewolfs the less chance of getting a new one.
* Ravenous Werewolfs can become stronger Blooded Werewolf after a battle, and Blooded Werewolves can become powerful Greater Werewolves.
* "Tough" - Unit always does damage per combat round as though it was at full strength.

I think werewolves are powerful enough already.

 

[QES]

Maybe remove the +10% city defense. Not sure if it fits. Increasing they strength by 30% or something when they're in a city with the demon's altar, though...

I can see your point, i just had this notion that Deamons as city-dwelling masters would be pretty cool, Corrupting the cities themselves, and pillaging bonuses etc.

Ah, I like the -50% against heroes. Maybe turn down the +50% against melee, though, considering that it would make grigori dragon slayers useless.

Or we could give grigori dragon slayers a bonus against the dragon subtype to compensate.

Too powerful, in my opinion. Also, keep in mind that they get no bonuses for jungles as far as I know.

Didnt realize about the jungles, but i think you're right now that i think on it.

SO what should elves have instead of invisability? Movement alone doesnt seem elfy enough (if the dwarves get fortification, i want the elves to have something too). Maybe +1 Visability range? That'd be less uber - treetop scouting and such.

I'm not sure if it would be as good there.

Why not? The idea is that it doesnt suffer from "pain" only destruction. Same with undead - both have the quality that they dont react to pain, therefore they could deal damage accordingly - they can still be destroyed, but they're not going to slow their attacks

I think werewolves are powerful enough already.

I think your right, but I'd like to add something for flavor context, if there was a day/night cycle itd be easy to give them additional visability during the night or something. But as is, i cant think of anything. I'll remove it, but I hope something cool still comes up.

-Qes

 

[eerr]

I think your right, but I'd like to add something for flavor context, if there was a day/night cycle itd be easy to give them additional visability during the night or something. But as is, i cant think of anything. I'll remove it, but I hope something cool still comes up.

-Qes

how about +1 visablity through forests?
makes elves easy chopmeat +units like the def bonus of forests

 

[Nikis-Knight]

Were wolves can also get enraged. I don't think they need anything more.

Even perhaps a new Template suggestion?

Not new exactly, but you could consider animal as such. (don't make people feel safe, can be subdued, hidden nationality, etc.)

Deamon:

Also have fire resistance, iirc.

 

[thealien_83]

Personally, I don't rightly feel like the Undead should be more powerful. When I think of undead armies, I think of overwhelming numbers of horrific (but for all that, not terribly effective) warriors from beyond death. But I don't really see a skeleton or zombie or what-have-you as being a more powerful fighter than a comparative human warrior. But that might just be me.

One thing to wonder though is why they can earn XP and golems cannot. I can certainly see it for the "higher" undead like liches and whatnot, but Skeletons?

Cheers!

 

[QES]

Personally, I don't rightly feel like the Undead should be more powerful. When I think of undead armies, I think of overwhelming numbers of horrific (but for all that, not terribly effective) warriors from beyond death. But I don't really see a skeleton or zombie or what-have-you as being a more powerful fighter than a comparative human warrior. But that might just be me.

One thing to wonder though is why they can earn XP and golems cannot. I can certainly see it for the "higher" undead like liches and whatnot, but Skeletons?

Cheers!

Some undead are arguably able to learn, but skeletons? You've a point, not sure we know how to remedy. Other than perhaps Undead is partially conceptualized as "sentiant" so that these beings can learn - where as golems, or effectively robots, only know what they're programed to.

Also the "Tough" idea was origionally Kael's I believe. And it really is the concept that the units dont feel pain, so they wouldnt lose their power as they got chopped up. Golems dont feel pain, neither to undead. Its not really making undead more powerful - considering that they are generally the weaker cousins of their living counter parts anyway. I see skeletons as axeman-line conceptulalizations. It may also give the Diseased corpses a bite - finally.
-Qes

 

[Nimbus]

Undead: * "Tough" - Unit always does damage per combat round as though it was at full strength.

I would rather see something that makes undead harder to damage. They are dead and feel no pain and keep coming at you until destroyed. If you really want the fantasy flavor then you could give the units a weakness against units with a certain weapon type or weapon promotion to help counter their thick skin.

 

[eerr]

I would rather see something that makes undead harder to damage. They are dead and feel no pain and keep coming at you until destroyed. If you really want the fantasy flavor then you could give the units a weakness against units with a certain weapon type or weapon promotion to help counter their thick skin.

perhaps if we reduce undeads str by about 1/4-1/3, then give +25% vs living and +25% vs physical damage
or +50% vs units that deal physical damage(most meelee recon archer mounted units ect)

magic that effects the undead will become the best way to destroy them

disciples will be immune to the bonus vs physical(they deal holy damage!)

Spoiler :

fire magic>undead
echantment magic>undead
discples>undead

the above forces you to specialize while the bonus vs the average unit makes it very risky just to stick with just normal units
onee of the earliest magics that will help is also enchanted blade, giving your meelee units an almost equal field

undead>curse magic
undead>average unit

enchantments will give an additional +20% vs the undead

 

[QES]

I think the point of "tough" already covers the "nature" of undeadness. Same with...er...Golemnocity. I would prefer not getting overly complicated with math, because not all processors like math - I hate getting a "Divide by cucumber" error.

Still, the "tough" precept might be able to be included - because of the nature of how lifespark and stoneskin work - another reason i dont want undead to be "harder to kill" because they're not stoneskined. They just dont feel pain. I seriously believe that being able to do max damage each potential round is pretty neat. And that diseased corpses, str 6, actually DOING that sort of damage, considering their diseased, might be VERY fruitful indeed.
-Qes

 

[eerr]

I think the point of "tough" already covers the "nature" of undeadness. Same with...er...Golemnocity. I would prefer not getting overly complicated with math, because not all processors like math - I hate getting a "Divide by cucumber" error.

Still, the "tough" precept might be able to be included - because of the nature of how lifespark and stoneskin work - another reason i dont want undead to be "harder to kill" because they're not stoneskined. They just dont feel pain. I seriously believe that being able to do max damage each potential round is pretty neat. And that diseased corpses, str 6, actually DOING that sort of damage, considering their diseased, might be VERY fruitful indeed.
-Qes

but wont this make mardero even more superly overpowered than sphener combined with cannibalise?

 

[Silverkiss]

Mardero is undead ? I tough he was only demon

 

[QES]

but wont this make mardero even more superly overpowered than sphener combined with cannibalise?

I thought, stereotypically, that the "bad guy" was always supposed to be uber, and that it took a group of good guys to defeat them. Sounds perfect to me.
-Qes

 

[thealien_83]

I thought, stereotypically, that the "bad guy" was always supposed to be uber, and that it took a group of good guys to defeat them. Sounds perfect to me.
-Qes

In theory/theme, sure. But how's that fair for game balance in any way ? What is it then that makes the Order a viable option comparatively, or do we just chew the sour apple and accept that "Yeah, your religion does suck a bit compared to that one." ?

Sure, you can argue for the difference between beakers and gold I guess, but I never took that as something meant to make the Veil weaker, even though I'm sure some players feel that way.

Cheers.

 

[QES]

My point is I dont think that we can actually plan for "that late game balance" quite yet, and if this change was made, im not sure how MORE or less uber it'd make a single unit. After all these, templates have a cumulative effect more than individual effects. Its the fact that ALL undead units get this little ability, or that ALL dwarven units get that little ability that makes a difference - a single hero gaining a slight abilty? Well, heros are ALREADY very deadly, and players know to take care of them using other heros or a multitude of lesser units - would this change? Prolly not, one would simply have to add a unit or two to the numbers one would already use - and Im suspecting that most players prefer the use of "overwhelming force" when at war anyway.

This is all a very complicated way of saying - I doubt peoples strategies toward a Single Hero unit, would change any.
-Qes

 

[thealien_83]

I don't mean so much that the entire game balance would be shot, certainly not. No one unit can really achieve that. But when you compare Sphener and Mardero they've always been sort of mirrors of each other, much like Rosier and Valin are. And it seems sort of pointlessly unfair to suddenly make one of them officially stronger than the other, "just 'cause".

But to each their own of course. I just don't buy the argument that the evil guys should be better because they are evil.

Cheers!

 

[Silverkiss]

Well dark magics are a shorter trip to power ;D

 

[triangle]

I think undead having tough is a great idea.

It would mean people actually use diseased corpes

If skeletons were reduced to 2 strength it would really help early game balance. Skellies would still be tricky to deal with because of tough, but they wouldn't be as obnoxious as they are now.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Or we could give grigori dragon slayers a bonus against the dragon subtype to compensate.

They already have a bonus. I favor the idea of having Acheron's stoneskin regenerate every turn to make him more dangerous. Bonuses against melee aren't really necessary. Also, it would be nice if he actually started using his ability to summon meteors.

SO what should elves have instead of invisability? Movement alone doesnt seem elfy enough (if the dwarves get fortification, i want the elves to have something too). Maybe +1 Visability range? That'd be less uber - treetop scouting and such.

They already have +10% attack and +10% defense in forests. I think that counts for something.

Why not? The idea is that it doesnt suffer from "pain" only destruction. Same with undead - both have the quality that they dont react to pain, therefore they could deal damage accordingly - they can still be destroyed, but they're not going to slow their attacks

It's more than just pain tolerance. Chop off a zombie's arm and it will still try to strangle you independently (maybe- I'm just providing an example here). Give a golem a swift kick in the gearbox and it might stop functioning entirely. If anything, I think golems should suffer more from damage, not less.

I think your right, but I'd like to add something for flavor context, if there was a day/night cycle itd be easy to give them additional visability during the night or something. But as is, i cant think of anything. I'll remove it, but I hope something cool still comes up.

Maybe an ability to "gift" lycanthropy. I'm afraid that it might be too powerful, though, if you could build warriors and immediately upgrade them into ravenous werewolves.