Academy on resource tiles

[clinton]

I was reading civilopedia and noticed that academies "improve" resources. I've also noticed that in the civilopedia things like pastures don't start and bonus yield, but tend to increase the yield by an additional one food (or other resource).

On the otherhand, things like farms on wheat seem to increase the yield by two food (one for the farm bonus, one for the "improve resource" bonus).

Obviously placing an academy stops you from building an improvement on the tile, but if academies "improve" resources, than I thought replacing say a pasture with an academy should not cause a lost of production.

Is this the case, and if so, are these the best places to put academies?

 

[DaveMcW]

Yes, pastures and strategic resources are the best place settle GPs.

But you should never build academies, except maybe one if you're Babylon.

 

[Tabarnak]

Yes, pastures and strategic resources are the best place settle GPs.

But you should never build academies, except maybe one if you're Babylon.

OCC, no RA rules, maybe it can worth it sometimes.

 

[WeaselSlapper]

You actually never want to settle a GP on a resource except maybe a hill sheep, even then it's questionable. The best place to settle a GP is a non-river grass land.

First it only connects Strat resources not luxuries and you don't get the additional yield from the tile improvement. They added that feature in case you have a strat resource pop up where you settled a GP.

But normally settling GP (except artists) is their worst use. All scientists should be used for bulb and all engineers should be used to rush a wonder.

 

[MaximusK]

Yes, pastures and strategic resources are the best place settle GPs.

But you should never build academies, except maybe one if you're Babylon.

It depends on the difficulty level and play style.

If you have a science city w/ NC/Observatory the academy tiles can add up. I usually set up an academy or two early in the game. Late game GS I always bulb. If you save some SP for Ren. you can finish Freedom quite early.

 

[MaximusK]

All scientists should be used for bulb and all engineers should be used to rush a wonder.

Depends on difficulty level, your play style and the strategy your pursuing. When I first started playing this game, I always bulbed GS/GE. It's fun to experiment with building cities around a few manufacturing plants or academies. Esp. w/ freedom finisher.

 

[WeaselSlapper]

Depends on difficulty level, your play style and the strategy your pursuing. When I first started playing this game, I always bulbed GS/GE. It's fun to experiment with building cities around a few manufacturing plants or academies. Esp. w/ freedom finisher.

The math has been done many times. If you're playing Babylon it can make sense to settle your first scientist, aside from that every scientist should be used for bulb regardless of difficulty.

GE can be used to settle sometimes, but those situations are rare where it would work out to more total hammers by the end of the game.

However, while the math says supports never settling is more efficient. On lower difficulties you can get away without playing at peak efficiency.

 

[MaximusK]

The math has been done many times. If you're playing Babylon it can make sense to settle your first scientist, aside from that every scientist should be used for bulb regardless of difficulty.

GE can be used to settle sometimes, but those situations are rare where it would work out to more total hammers by the end of the game.

However, while the math says supports never settling is more efficient. On lower difficulties you can get away without playing at peak efficiency.

I hope they tweak it so there are more situations where the tile improvements make sense in terms of efficiency or perhaps one of the new civ's will have a UA that goes along with them (sort of like Korea's).

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

the only reason to settle lots of scientists is if you are going to finish Freedom. And that is less likely in a science/domination victory because you arent focusing on rapid culture gains.

some basic math is this: at 6 beakers a turn and a game that lasts 250-300 turns (safe assumption on game length) means you will get by the end of the game 1500-1800 beakers per academy. (This can go up by a couple with the rationalism policy, but it only gets to be a lot if you finish Freedom.) It doesnt take long to see when techs start costing more than 1500 and you realize that saving them to bulb is far more valuable. It can affect timing for when things occur like entry into a new era (access to new social policies) or what turn you can start a wonder on which can have even more value than the total number of beakers.

 

[WeaselSlapper]

I hope they tweak it so there are more situations where the tile improvements make sense in terms of efficiency or perhaps one of the new civ's will have a UA that goes along with them (sort of like Korea's).

I agree with you here, it would be nice to have more flexibility. There have been many threads on this and many good suggestions, we'll see if any ever get implemented.

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

I hope they tweak it so there are more situations where the tile improvements make sense in terms of efficiency or perhaps one of the new civ's will have a UA that goes along with them (sort of like Korea's).

likewise. i hope for either a wonder to increase the bpt/cpt from academies/culture settlements or when you enter a new era their values increase. as it is there is no reason to settle a merchant, and a rare reason to settle the others. consuming GPs is still the most valuable use.

 

[VikingHaag]

the only reason to settle lots of scientists is if you are going to finish Freedom. And that is less likely in a science/domination victory because you arent focusing on rapid culture gains.

some basic math is this: at 6 beakers a turn and a game that lasts 250-300 turns (safe assumption on game length) means you will get by the end of the game 1500-1800 beakers per academy. (This can go up by a couple with the rationalism policy, but it only gets to be a lot if you finish Freedom.) It doesnt take long to see when techs start costing more than 1500 and you realize that saving them to bulb is far more valuable. It can affect timing for when things occur like entry into a new era (access to new social policies) or what turn you can start a wonder on which can have even more value than the total number of beakers.

Depending on the start settling all scientist may not be a bad idea.
Babylon starting next to a mountain, if you get freedom and settle a lot of GS 1000 beakers a turn is perfectly doable in that single city.

 

[Gherkin]

While it is true that at the end of the game, and in absolute terms, a GS is more valuable to pop a tech than the science per turn from an academy, the same is not true in the early game. That 6/turn can be extremely valuable early. 6/turn when your total science is under 50-ish is a huge boost. Not so much later when your science per turn is 500-1000.

 

[rev063]

some basic math is this: at 6 beakers a turn and a game that lasts 250-300 turns (safe assumption on game length) means you will get by the end of the game 1500-1800 beakers per academy. (This can go up by a couple with the rationalism policy, but it only gets to be a lot if you finish Freedom.) It doesnt take long to see when techs start costing more than 1500 and you realize that saving them to bulb is far more valuable. It can affect timing for when things occur like entry into a new era (access to new social policies) or what turn you can start a wonder on which can have even more value than the total number of beakers.

That math doesn't seem quite right though. Academy beakers count as tile income, so they're subject to multipliers from libraries, policies, etc. Could be quite a multiple of the raw 1500 or so beakers in the end.

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

That math doesn't seem quite right though. Academy beakers count as tile income, so they're subject to multipliers from libraries, policies, etc. Could be quite a multiple of the raw 1500 or so beakers in the end.

yeah, things like buildings or policies that give XX% bonus affect it but that was just the basic math.

 

[WeaselSlapper]

That math doesn't seem quite right though. Academy beakers count as tile income, so they're subject to multipliers from libraries, policies, etc. Could be quite a multiple of the raw 1500 or so beakers in the end.

True, but you're forgetting the opportunity cost of giving up the base improvement to that tile. So that 6 science comes at the cost of 2 food, production, gold, or whatever else could have been improved on that tile otherwise (which is why grasslands are the best place to settle because they gain the least from improvements).

Even 12 beakers per turn at the cost of an extra citizen is a questionable exchange even ignoring the potential benefit of popping a tech early.

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

True, but you're forgetting the opportunity cost of giving up the base improvement to that tile. So that 6 science comes at the cost of 2 food, production, gold, or whatever else could have been improved on that tile otherwise (which is why grasslands are the best place to settle because they gain the least from improvements).

Even 12 beakers per turn at the cost of an extra citizen is a questionable exchange even ignoring the potential benefit of popping a tech early.

yeah, there is definitely an opportunity cost as well. a hill grasslands by a river always make me think twice about which long-term improvement i'll do.

if there is only one cattle/sheep in my territory (and no horses) ill settle a gs on that as i probably wouldnt build a stables since the benefit (only +1 prod) isnt worth the maintenance cost. i might even do it on a wheat if it looks like food wont be a problem.

also, later in the game ill actually have a worker remove the academy for a trading post since its effect is worth less than 3 or 4 gpt. but thats only if im feeling extra micro-managey. by that time its not usually necessary for that kind of citizen upkeep, that or my empire is so big ill just overlook it.