Acken's Minimalistic Balance for singleplayer (and AI improvements)

[TheGrumpyBuddha]

It's okay since Cargo ships have been nerfed severely. I still think coastal starts are rubbish, even more than in the base game. Also the AI actually builds Battle Ships and tons of U-Boats now, so Coastal Cities are way more threatened than land-based cities are.

It's true about defending them but the pantheon for +1 prod/boat is just so nice if you can get 4+ (and I've gotten up to 7 in Acken-land). Cargo ships have been nerfed but I wouldn't say they suck.

As far as your current game goes, um, restart . But I think that Tradition + coastal-start-with-lots-of-sea-resources is playable, just let them expand to you and then start taking their stuff.

 

[Acken]

Good write up. I'll wait for the followup. Pearls should probably be like gems at 3gold at least.

 

[chumchu]

Conquer the city state behind your lines for a fourth city, and to feed the capital as well.

 

[Phukit]

Conquer the city state behind your lines for a fourth city, and to feed the capital as well.

Looks like it could be trash tundra?

 

[Chum]

It's true about defending them but the pantheon for +1 prod/boat is just so nice if you can get 4+ (and I've gotten up to 7 in Acken-land). Cargo ships have been nerfed but I wouldn't say they suck.

As far as your current game goes, um, restart . But I think that Tradition + coastal-start-with-lots-of-sea-resources is playable, just let them expand to you and then start taking their stuff.

Sea Resources in Acken land, you say? That is 9 workable whales in 3 cities.

Don't forget that work boats are only 160g. I built exactly zero of those boats with Samurai. You can make enough money selling the first resource to buy the boat for the next, and on down the line.

 

[Acken]

Hmm that' probably a bit much. But that is mostly a consequence of the latest NQMascript.

 

[Legen]

It's already an improvement over the base game, where you often got a start with no sea resources when playing a coastal bias civ. Bonus for Japan, whose UA was inconsistent and unreliable, at least for the capital.

I think it's okay, seeing that we need to compensate for the lower output of cargo ships somehow. But then, maybe the Cargo Ship should have a lower production cost to compensate for the nerf; 100 is quite steep for its yields even if you're playing Carthage.

 

[Acken]

Cargo is 100 for 1.5x yield for say 4-5 food while caravan is 75 for 1x yield for 2-3 food. Sounds reasonable to me.

 

[TheGrumpyBuddha]

Hmm that' probably a bit much. But that is mostly a consequence of the latest NQMascript.

Given how important it is to do Early War, and given that it costs extra time to divert to Optics to take advantage of all the sea resources, I think it balances out. I just started a Japan game with 4 sea resources in 2 spots and at first I thought it was great, but it slowed me down enough that I couldn't rush Arabia until they were dripping with those damned Camel Archers ...

 

[Chum]

Hmm that' probably a bit much. But that is mostly a consequence of the latest NQMascript.

Oh, don't take it as a complaint.

That map only worked for me because of where I was - almost completely cut off from everyone else. There were about 3 spots in the mountain chain dividing the northern tip of that continent from the rest of it, and you could only walk thru 1 unit at a time.

Considering how slow that start was (calendar and optics), I needed that extra food/production/gold to offset how far behind I was in the early game. It wasn't until I found that tiny island to the east that I really started to gain some ground, since there wasn't enough room for 4 cities.

Sea Resources make or break coastal starts. You can't have half of your cities be water tiles and produce anything useful at all. Bare minimum, I'd say lighthouse needs to turn blank ocean tiles to 3 food, which I don't see as being too overpowered. But if sea resources are that common, then I'd say we're good. You get way early 4 food 1 hammer tiles (compared to grassland river, which requires a hydro plant), but you've gotta divert off the tech path and build order to do it. Seems reasonable, as long as the sea resources are there.

 

[Phukit]

Oh, don't take it as a complaint.

That map only worked for me because of where I was - almost completely cut off from everyone else. There were about 3 spots in the mountain chain dividing the northern tip of that continent from the rest of it, and you could only walk thru 1 unit at a time.

Considering how slow that start was (calendar and optics), I needed that extra food/production/gold to offset how far behind I was in the early game. It wasn't until I found that tiny island to the east that I really started to gain some ground, since there wasn't enough room for 4 cities.

Sea Resources make or break coastal starts. You can't have half of your cities be water tiles and produce anything useful at all. Bare minimum, I'd say lighthouse needs to turn blank ocean tiles to 3 food, which I don't see as being too overpowered. But if sea resources are that common, then I'd say we're good. You get way early 4 food 1 hammer tiles (compared to grassland river, which requires a hydro plant), but you've gotta divert off the tech path and build order to do it. Seems reasonable, as long as the sea resources are there.

There is a great mod called something like "improved water tiles"

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=322554338

 

[TheGrumpyBuddha]

Sea Resources make or break coastal starts. You can't have half of your cities be water tiles and produce anything useful at all.

I have to disagree with this. My first Acken-Immortal-Pangea win was with a coastal cap with zero sea resources. Now, I did have half-decent resources on the land side of things (a couple salt, couple pastures) and two other coastal cities I built did have sea resources.

When going Liberty, your cap is not going to be harvesting 12+ tiles a turn for *quite* a while, if ever, so as long as the remaining dirt is in good shape, you're fine. And as we've discussed, no sea resources means you don't have to spend twenty+ turns on Sailing/Optics early on.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

And as we've discussed, no sea resources means you don't have to spend twenty+ turns on Sailing/Optics early on.

You don't Have to do that either way..

Maybe you're growing a little on the slow side, but in my current game it's T150 and I've pretty much run out of tiles to work (specialists included). Coastal starts are a major boon, coastal starts without sea ressources pretty much mean you need 6+ cities to even stay competitive unless every single land tile of yours is Salt or Wheat..

 

[arkham4269]

I think the Aeon Speed Mod conflicts with this mod. Playing on King at standard speed at it seems much easier. Still seeing these HUGE empires which makes me wonder given how normally I have to hope to keep my empire happy.

Then again, during this game, *my* happiness is way high; higher than I'd expect although I have a much smaller empire than I normally do. That and I have the Fountain of Youth which helps.

 

[Acken]

Of course Aeon Speed Mod conflicts with the mod Taken from the mod page

New GameSpeed that attempts to extend each era to approximately 200 turns but lowers the cost of training units and constructing buildings (except World Wonders) to allow for more warfare throughout.

It then modifies a lot of the costs for techs culture etc. balance stuff.

Depending on which order the mods are loaded in you're going to have weird results if you try to run 2 "balance" mods at the same time.

 

[TheGrumpyBuddha]

...coastal starts without sea ressources pretty much mean you need 6+ cities to even stay competitive unless every single land tile of yours is Salt or Wheat..

I've tried Tradition w/4 big cities, the AI eats me alive in mid-to-late game. I thought one thing we agreed on in this thread is that on Pangea at least, you Expand Or You Die.

Now, if you have a map where you can turtle with 4 big cities, then yeah, you want the sea resources to thrive. Frankly that's the kind of map/game I prefer, especially w/Polynesia, but Acken doesn't care about what I want, the jerk!

 

[arkham4269]

Still think the AI is too focused on killing an individual unit of mine rather than defending a city of theirs. Using the Mercenary mod, three times I've taken cities with a Mongolian battering ram which was never even fired on in lieu of taking out other units; some not a threat to the city.

Not sure if it's the mod or just the AI again going for the weaker civ's and easy kills rather than playing smarter tactically and strategically.

 

[Acken]

That's just the AI.

 

[Phukit]

I spent the vast majority of my afternoon rerolling maps with Japan,i rerolled 50 times and only once was I able to replicate the kind of sea resource heavy starts that have been posted here.And when i did it was 5 fish 5 whales across the cap and 2 expos.

The rest was a mix of a few sea resources/land resources or just no sea resources at all.or
Clearly these kinds of starts "can" happen but i dont think they are normal by any stretch of the imagination.They seem about as common as a 4-5 salt cap start.

As a side note,not once in 50 rerolls did i see so much as a single atoll on pangea/continents/small continents maps

 

[Chum]

I've tried Tradition w/4 big cities, the AI eats me alive in mid-to-late game. I thought one thing we agreed on in this thread is that on Pangea at least, you Expand Or You Die.

Now, if you have a map where you can turtle with 4 big cities, then yeah, you want the sea resources to thrive. Frankly that's the kind of map/game I prefer, especially w/Polynesia, but Acken doesn't care about what I want, the jerk!

Liberty isn't necessary. Expansion isn't necessary.

What is necessary is preventing the AI from expanding. How you do that is up to you.