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Acken's Minimalistic Balance for singleplayer (and AI improvements)

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Modpacks' started by Acken, Aug 3, 2015.

  1. Asterix Rage

    Asterix Rage Warlord

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    Eaten by my opponents at Emperor level again. This MOD is crazy I (I from AI)
    Third game whith Single Unit Graphics (v 10) and really_advanced_setup__v_15 Mods without any conflict.That's great
    +100% :c5happy:
    The windmill "revolution" need to be update on the cyclopedia (Still said not buildable on hill)
     
  2. noto2

    noto2 Emperor

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    Anyone actually like the fact that triplanes only get 50% chance intercept? I, for one, think it's incredibly stupid. Why should my army be getting pounded by great war bombers (fictional units) when I have a whole fleet of triplanes sitting on intercept that aren't doing anything? It makes no sense for game balance... and for historical accuracy it's laughable as well (since there were no bombers that did anything relevant in WW1) I think triplanes should get 100% intercept, or the interceptor promotion should bring it up to 100%, at the very least.
     
  3. noto2

    noto2 Emperor

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    Also, Acken, you said you were working on tweaking Civ UA's for the next version? Could you share your ideas? Maybe we could try and figure out the most hated/most in need of change UA's. Off the top of my head... Carthage, America, Ottomans, Mongols, even England...
     
  4. Phukit

    Phukit Warlord

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    Bombers have historically always been virtually helpless to defend themselves hence they always had fighter escorts.

    so clearly intercept % should be %100 with promotions that allow for more dmg dealt during interception.

    I also believe that air repair should only be available at the 4th promotion as opposed to the second.
     
  5. Jaybe

    Jaybe civus fanaticus Supporter

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    Hear, hear!
    Or, as an alternative, air repair only heals a moved unit 10, even in a city with a medic adjacent.
     
  6. yung.carl.jung

    yung.carl.jung Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious

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    I completely agree. Go a few pages back, I made a lot of suggestions regarding Triplanes and the Japanese Zero. I'm sure Acken will have a look at Triplanes, seeing as many people have complained now.



    Another few things I have been thinking about:

    Targeted Missiles are just about useless. They're completely horrible and no one ever uses them- I think it is very much valid to increase their damage by a decent chunk. They should be used to take out a strategic enemy: Kill a Mobile SAM and then use your Bombers to kill the Great General stacked below it. They would be very much useful for this purpose. As it is now they are outclassed by Bombers in every way.

    Have you checked out the changes NQ_Mod made to the "Formation" promotion and to Landships/Tanks in general? I think they are amazing and make melee combat much more interesting and sophisticated.

    Lastly, I think Atomic Bombs and XCOM are a little too strong in their current state. I think a very slight damage reduction would be appropriate for the XCOM, after all they are supposed to be the best Infantry in the game. My gripe is just that there is zero reason to go for Mechanized Infantry, it just sucks and I actually like that unit a lot.
     
  7. Acken

    Acken Deity

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    Regarding triplanes it's very likely I do it. For repair it will probably become a level 4 promotion.

    A proposal for targeted missile is to give them limited range but a 100% guarantee to one shot non-infantry units. Or alternatively make it an anti-city unit. Both ideas require some AI adjustment so I'll have to see what remains AI friendly.

    The merge of vs armor and vs mounted makes sense but I do not like the +50% against land unit promotion of the NQMod, tanks are already considered to be pretty good considering they have strength and mobility.

    I'll see for XCom vs Mechanized Infantry balance. A rather remote game issue though.

    Well I'm not able to work that much on it right now.
    I have given a buff to Assyria through a free great writer at Writing and the Royal Library being a bit better, Byzantium can now make triremes, gets a free prophet at Theology (tentative change) and cataphracts are always available for faith.
     
  8. noto2

    noto2 Emperor

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    Honestly, balancing Xcoms and nukes is probably a months long project all on its own. I play with Xcoms, nukes, and stealth bombers disabled. Nuclear weapons have always ruined Civ games, I've always taken them out of the game... since Civ3 anyway. They are just too difficult to balance.
     
  9. chumchu

    chumchu Warlord

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    http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=572841257v
    I'm having a really good game with the Aztecs at immortal, standard, NQ pangea. Currently I'm at plastics turn 165 despite building NC turn 105 in my fifth expand

    http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=572843141
    Liberty 6 city + 4 conquered, worked like a charm. Had a great start with 3 culture ruins enabling settler policy turn 16 :crazyeye:, 6 cities by turn 44. I also managed a worker steal from Mongolia, peaced out, and built enough spearmen in my new cities to defend their counterattack.

    http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=572841476
    Beelined workshops for production caravans as I had more food than happyness and wanted iron and engineering before civil service anyway. I also wanted to medieval to unlock commerce as I did not want to put more than 1 point in patronage. Jaguar swordsmen were strong, I used 6 of them with some comps and catapults to rush Brazil in the 70-ties, Mongolia in 110-ties and Huns in the 130-ties (to liberate city states). There have been two major set backs, 1) I had no coal close by despite having 3 empires which messed with my timing for freedom, great artists and great writers. 2) Siam attacked me right before plastics with elephants, rifles and crossbows. I used 2 research labs of gold to defend my closest city and upgrade my army.

    I'm aiming for a turn 215 victory, (my previous best with aztecs was 216). I think that I will a be limited by science despite reaching 2000+ science after labs. Culture might be an issue as well if I want to finish commerce as well as freedom and rationalism but I have both worlds fair, hermitage and statue of liberty lined up. I could go for Sydney and CN Tower in my coastal mega culture before Apollo since I'm freedom, will have unneccessary engineers, and will be gold purchasing all parts without problem. I could probably time it with worlds fair for 800 culture per turn. Is it worth it though?


    https://www.dropbox.com/s/7wsg6eo9okzibsi/AutoSave_0000%20BC-4000.Civ5Save?dl=0

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/830a6651aqfpxty/Montezuma_0165%20AD-1050.Civ5Save?dl=0
     
  10. Acken

    Acken Deity

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    Give us a review once finished
     
  11. chumchu

    chumchu Warlord

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    Finish turn 211. End science 2834 =). I had beautiful late game population from floating gardens, ToA and going for penicillin directly after statue.
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/ek5lxyqmhc6nr4y/2015-12-11_00001.jpg?dl=0
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/o9jtlimo1tez5s5/Montezuma_ScienceVictory.Civ5Save?dl=0

    Totally overshot culture when I started to focus on it, ended up 2000 culture a turn and 8 policies too many =). I should probably just have skipped all amphitheaters, operas, archaeologists et cetera for earlier grand temple and working research. I timed everything around getting 5000 faith turn 209 but it turned out that I had precisely enough without that scientist =(.

    The AI were much less competitive in science this game than in my last game (on demi-god),I had a science lead from late medieval. It might have to do with the fact that no one went tradition and there were a lot of warmonger.

    Regarding science games:
    + I like the fact that conquest augmented science victory works really well, I feel like I could have gone for 12 cities instead of "just" 10.
    + I like the fixed value at creation as it makes scientists less of a bother and the timing more smooth. You can't just hoard scientists and skip the last two eras anymore.
    - Freedom feels weaker than order for science victory with the nerf to specialists from secularism. Even with freedom you can just as well work trading post as merchants and engineers, only the scientist slots are crucial. With order you get the 25% and the extra scientist. Add a +1 science from specialists in freedom, at free expression.
    - The current research labs are way too strong, with 2 scientist slots they are by far the most important building in the late game which means that the tech order becomes formulaic, a beeline for plastics. I suggest you move it to libraries, that would make them tempting early now that NC is nerfed. If you end up with too many scientist you could nerf them to 6 turns of science + 200.
     
  12. Dahebbie

    Dahebbie Warlord

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    Thx for the reply on this. I had just never seen it before, so thanks for enligthing me.

    An other thing, do you know why this mod can't work with Nokmirts WWI scenario?

    Se my post on this issue here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=14089407#post14089407
     
  13. noto2

    noto2 Emperor

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    Acken I just finished an emperor game with your mod. I'm a little confused about the AI behaviour, but then I'm not sure it's something that can be fixed.

    Basically it was a continents map, there were 3 continents. I controlled one, Denmark one, and Iroqouis one. It came down to either Denmark or I was going to win. Denmark invaded the Iros and was conquering their cities.

    I invaded Denmark and slowly conquered cities moving towards their capital. They defended and sent a lot of troops at me, and nearly stopped me, but in the end I took their capital.

    What was surprising was in the ending turns of the game I noticed the Danes had a huge navy still pounding away at the Iroquois. Why didn't they recall their navy to defend their capital? It seemed like Denmark was so focused on conquest it didn't try hard enough to defend itself, thus losing the capital. And it's not like I took it quickly. Their navy had more than enough time to turn around and head home, and deal with my massive fleet of carriers.
     
  14. Acken

    Acken Deity

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    @noto2:
    Well maybe this kind of problem "can" be fixed. It's not easy though and is a weakness of the AI (always has been) that is somewhat more apparent in the mod because of more agressions.

    @Dahebbie:
    I don't think you should be using both my mod and a scenario at the same time. I guess scenarios are crafted to give an experience with special rules and units. It doesn't really make sense to try to combine my DLL mod crafted for the base game with a scenario.
    One possible reason it doesnt work is that my mod currently isn't using SQL triggers if someone adds leaders etc after the mod is loaded.
     
  15. noto2

    noto2 Emperor

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    Is it because once the AI begins invasion plans it won't stop them until the target is conquered? How could that be solved? Would it be possible to get the AI to give up its invasion plans if another civ declares war on it? Perhaps the AI could at least roll a chance of making peace with civ A, if civ B declares war.
     
  16. Acken

    Acken Deity

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    There are multiple possible reasons. It fails to evaluate the danger of the second attack, it doesn't disband the army operation it has over one of its target especially if that army is winning etc. In general the AI doesn't really understand danger very well. Making it likely to do peace with the other civ is rather easy, there's already something about that in the game but it may also chose to make peace with you. All this is rather difficult to first understand in the code and then even harder to "fix". In general the whole 1UPT thing and units movements is a nightmare for the AI let's be honest. The reason is that the AI doesn't see the big picture of combat like a human do. It sees the game through loops, checking tiles 1 by 1 etc. Efficiency at 1UPT requires to see the big picture.
    In the end it's something I'm unlikely to fix myself. Most of what I took from Artificial Unintelligence are improvements upon the whole 1UPT part, not everything because of performance issues with some changes. Delnar Ersike is a lot more qualified than I am to fix that kind of issues.
     
  17. yung.carl.jung

    yung.carl.jung Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious

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    I would like to add to this a little. Since it seems not many people have attempted Acken Deity so far, I'll share some of my sentiments.

    On the higher levels, DemiGod and Deity, Science changes completely and in unexpected ways. Some of the following happen:

    1) Spies are now actually useful and will give you tons of techs, even in the Info era, since you will always be behind in tech
    2) You are breezing through the tech tree faster because every technology you research will have been researched by at least five or six AIs already (assuming standard of 8 players)
    3) Planting a lot more Scientists than in the unmodded game makes for much higher endgame bulb values
    4) After Research Labs you will be producing Great Scientists much faster
    5) Since the Science Penalty for cities has been nerfed,
    6) Wide play in generally has been buffed, which in turn
    7) Has made lategame bulb values completely explode
    (Also see Chumchu's post about making 2000 science per turn, my experiences are similiar)

    When you started with this mod you were saying that you really want to slow down the last two eras, because they went past in very few turns due to Great Scientist readjusting their bulb values in the base game. This had the effect that late-game units were barely ever used, which is really sad, because it is arguably the most fun part of the entire game.

    Now on DemiGod and Deity the thing is that - due to all the factors named above - the last two eras go by almost as fast as they do in the unmodded game and that is a complete shame in my opinion.

    There are only very few turns between the AI getting Research Labs and the AI fielding Modern Armor and Rocket Artillery, at least on DemiGod and Deity. Some games end as early as turn 200. The same goes for the player.

    Now I love chumchu's suggestion since I think the Great Scientist specialist slot comes way too late, but including one more specialist slot that early in the game would make the late game even shorter, since obviously, the earlier the Great Scientists get planted the better.

    I think the most elegant and practical solution for this dilemma would be to slightly nerf Research Labs and give the Library the Scientist Slot it always deserved. Even if you think it's a horrible idea maybe it would be worth a try for the next experimental version.

    Proposed Changes:

    Library receives a Great Scientist slot
    Research Labs now give +33% Science instead of +50% (Alternatively: Research Labs give +40% Science, but lose their second Specialist Slot)
     
  18. Acken

    Acken Deity

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    I have been thinking about removing the raw science from labs and schools (the +3 and +4 respectively). The slot in library can make academies a bit more attractive if you can get some sooner.

    For the pace of the late game it's a problem that I agree with. My current idea is to simply give a small bump to the wide penality. It currently is at 0.05*N^0.65 for the player so something like 0.75 or 0.8 and give the AI the same increase (note that the AI has a better exponent on higher difficulties giving it a very strong scalability with how wide it is).

    I'm reluctant to go beyond targetting wide games specifically since the late game techs are already costing a lot more. The fact that the AI already has some of those late techs though is something we are not used to in the base game so some of them are heavily discounted and stealable. Something I may look into.
     
  19. noto2

    noto2 Emperor

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    It's odd how the library is without a specialist. The market and workshop both have slots, the library should too.

    It's okay that a wide empire can produce more science than a small/tall one. Rather than balance the game by making wide empire science more expensive, I think we should just give a tall empire a similar advantage. If you remember in Civ 4, tall empires didn't keep up because wide ones had science penalties, they kept up through sheer beaker output.

    If you're finding that tall empires are having a hard time keeping up, since you tweaked the science cost, maybe you could just undo your national college nerf, and put it back to +50%.

    Oh and... about scientists. Civ 5 is the first in the series to make bulb power scale. In 4, scientist bulbs would just give a set # of beakers, if I remember correctly. So now that bulbing scales based on science output, bulbing is very weak early game and just incredibly OP late game. I'm not sure this was a good design choice, tbh. Late game bulbs still seem ridiculously powerful. In Civ 4 there was no overflow from bulbing so the most you could get was 1 tech, which seems balanced to me. Just my opinion.
     
  20. yung.carl.jung

    yung.carl.jung Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious

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    I love that suggestion. This is especially great since the flat Science is much more valuable for wide empires than for tall ones. So tall empires still get the nice percentage bonus and wide empires lategame Science is decreased quite a bit - if we are talking six cities it would be 42 Science before modifiers, so something close to 100 Science.

    I think Spies need to be reworked completely (I despise RNG), but that is a completely different story and probably not even doable without completely rewriting the game ;)
     

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