Addicted to Creative

[Deepflow]

Just thought I'd say that I love creative too...

One of the main reasons for me though, is popping borders on cities you have just captured, if you're not in caste system it can be a real pain to see those huge cities starve down just because you cant work 12 of the tiles. Often they have artist buildings, but not always.

That's something that is valuable throughout the entire game.

 

[lilnev]

Perhaps here's a way to look at it: Without Creative, you have to research Mysticism quite early, when it takes 6 or 7 turns that you'd rather spend adding worker-techs, Writing, or whatever. With Creative, you'll eventually have to pick it up, but probably at a cost of just 1 or 2 turns, so being Creative sets your research ahead by about 5 turns.

Likewise without Creative, you have to build a monument in each of your initial cities except the capital. You could work a plains-forest-hill for 7.5 turns to build it; or work a 3F tile for 8 turns and then whip it (with some overflow); or more likely, chop a 20 hammer forest and come up with 10 hammers somewhere -- ~2.5 turns of productive output, plus 4 worker-turns, plus a forest that can't be spent on something else. And in all these cases, your wait for access to your second-ring tiles will be 5 turns longer. So total output lost is probably less than 5 turns for those cities whose best food/production tiles are in the inner ring, but more than 5 turns for those with the best tiles in the outer ring. (Alternatively, you can build Stonehenge. That generally takes more than 5 turns worth of production, but also returns GPPs. Call it a wash)

So very roughly speaking, Creative saves you ~5 turns in the early game. Does that sound about right? Would you be willing to pass the first five turns before settling, in exchange for the free 2/turn culture?

Then, is that enough to make it a good trait? Spiritual almost certainly saves more turns of anarchy, but it does it spread throughout the game, and earlier is better....

peace,
lilnev

 

[Artichoker]

Perhaps here's a way to look at it: Without Creative, you have to research Mysticism quite early, when it takes 6 or 7 turns that you'd rather spend adding worker-techs, Writing, or whatever. With Creative, you'll eventually have to pick it up, but probably at a cost of just 1 or 2 turns, so being Creative sets your research ahead by about 5 turns.

Likewise without Creative, you have to build a monument in each of your initial cities except the capital. You could work a plains-forest-hill for 7.5 turns to build it; or work a 3F tile for 8 turns and then whip it (with some overflow); or more likely, chop a 20 hammer forest and come up with 10 hammers somewhere -- ~2.5 turns of productive output, plus 4 worker-turns, plus a forest that can't be spent on something else. And in all these cases, your wait for access to your second-ring tiles will be 5 turns longer. So total output lost is probably less than 5 turns for those cities whose best food/production tiles are in the inner ring, but more than 5 turns for those with the best tiles in the outer ring. (Alternatively, you can build Stonehenge. That generally takes more than 5 turns worth of production, but also returns GPPs. Call it a wash)

So very roughly speaking, Creative saves you ~5 turns in the early game. Does that sound about right? Would you be willing to pass the first five turns before settling, in exchange for the free 2/turn culture?

Then, is that enough to make it a good trait? Spiritual almost certainly saves more turns of anarchy, but it does it spread throughout the game, and earlier is better....

peace,
lilnev

I was thinking along the same lines, except that instead of researching Mysticism, why not research Writing?

Get an early lead on technological research by creating a Library instead of a Monument...that way, instead of getting just +1 per turn, you'll be getting +4 per turn, along with the extra research as well.

 

[bardolph]

One man's trash is another man's treasure, eh? I like for traits to offer (even demand) different strategies and approaches, so that explains a lot.

Yes, I'm starting to move to this type of approach as well. It may be reasonable to characterize Creative as a somewhat "newbish" trait (no offense to anyone, including myself ).

I agree Creative can certainly make Domination that much simpler, but I think it comes down to personal preference, because I'd rather have Organized for Domination.

Zara Yaqob, anyone?

Organized is a first-class trait for sure.

To take full advantage of creative, you have to play in a way that leverages its benefits.

If, for example, my play style is to build two settlers, turtle, and beeline to rifling, then what has creative given me? I got the benefit of my cities becoming fully productive up to ten or twenty turns sooner... but I did nothing with that benefit, and thus I have gained little or no advantage.


The benefit of creative is automatic, but turning that benefit into a lasting advantage takes effort, just like every other trait.

Despite my own arguments to the contrary, I tend to agree with this point

The longer this thread goes on, the more I realize that to really leverage Creative to its full potential, you need to be playing for a Domination win.

This is one misconception about the Creative trait. At first glance, it looks like "this is the 'cultural' trait, therefore I should be pursuing a Cultural victory." This is a misunderstanding: Industrious is by far the best trait for pursuing a Cultural victory.

 

[Calouste]

I was thinking along the same lines, except that instead of researching Mysticism, why not research Writing?

Get an early lead on technological research by creating a Library instead of a Monument...that way, instead of getting just +1 per turn, you'll be getting +4 per turn, along with the extra research as well.

Libraries cost 90 , that will take quite a few turns to get.

Creative really shines in getting your first 4-5 cities up and running and productive very quickly. You don't need Mysticism, so you basically get a free starting tech (I usually trade for Mysticism after Alphabet, just for the diplo bonus). In addition to that, your city can work resources in the outer ring of the BFC by the time it reaches size 2, giving an additional boost to small cities.

There are a number of small advantages associated with fast border popping that all add up and make the early game for Creative leaders more efficient:

- Better city placement/ability to work the second ring of the BFC earlier
- Earlier fog busting
- Galleys can move on ocean tiles within cultural boundaries
- Higher cultural defense

Yes, you can get all that in different ways, but with Creative you get it cheaper and faster. For example, you can build Barracks in a city to give your archers City Guard I, or you can rely on the 20% cultural defense bonus that Creative gives to new cities.

Where Creative shows strong is in areas that are hammer poor and resource poor. For example water, highland, tundra or desert maps.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

Yes, I'm starting to move to this type of approach as well. It may be reasonable to characterize Creative as a somewhat "newbish" trait (no offense to anyone, including myself ).

I almost posted something along these lines myself but stopped because it sounded too demeaning.

Creative seems to be loved by the "newbs" and the "experts" and hated by everyone in between.

The "newbs" love it because it absolves them of learning the aspect of the game and of certain micro-management elements.

The "experts" love it because it allows them to land grab more effectively at high levels when early game production is worth so much more against the heavily-handicapped AI.

Everyone in between has found so many methods for creating and managing that it feels like a wasted trait.

So I guess if I ever move beyond Emperor (which I play very seldom as it is), I'll probably revisit how I feel for Creative.

 

[InvisibleStalke]

Perhaps here's a way to look at it: Without Creative, you have to research Mysticism quite early, when it takes 6 or 7 turns that you'd rather spend adding worker-techs, Writing, or whatever. With Creative, you'll eventually have to pick it up, but probably at a cost of just 1 or 2 turns, so being Creative sets your research ahead by about 5 turns.

Thats a false argument. If you research Mysticism in 6-7 turns then you won't be researching something else that will take you less time to research later. You still need the same number of total beakers to research mysticism + all the other techs you want.

Not researching Mysticism means that you can forgo the opportunity cost of researching Mysticism until later in the game (if you want to) and research something else that is more urgent to you instead. Your advantage is not a lower research spend or a five turn gain in research - it is the marginal benefit of having the other tech you chose to research instead 6-7 turns earlier. Whatever you can translate that into.

For me mysticism isn't going to be one of the first five or so techs I research that give the most critical benefits of unlocking early resources and military. But once I have military and food problems solved, then I'll look at my culture problems. At that point in the game other techs aren't going to give a big benefit to me. Sure getting writing earlier might mean an earlier library - but chances are settlers, workers and military are my build priorities at this point. A library probably needs to wait a little anyway.

I do skip mysticism with creative and it is nice. But I wouldn't could it as a five turn advantage.

 

[Roxlimn]

I think that I've been able to realize the effect of Creative best with Suryavarman - not having to research Mysticism and build Monument plus the ability to whip out half-price Granaries translates into rapid and sustained expansion. Financial helps with paying for maintenance, of course, as does Organized; but in the early part of the game, vertical expansion - rapid city growth - seems to be the most important determinant of how fast you can actually expand and keep on expanding. The fastest self-expansion I've ever done is actually with Suryavarman, not with Cathy or other Imperialistic leaders, who normally drive their economies into the ground pretty quickly.

With a large enough city on select sites, you can pay for maintenance on worked tiles with or without Financial. Financial helps to get you to that number sooner (with smaller core cities), but there's no substitute for getting to your happy face limit extra fast.

By obviating the need for Monument, you can get to working on your Granaries faster, which can translate into faster growth, or cottages where farms should be or extra production power in whipping.

Granted, the strat works best with Suryavarman, but the production premium of 30 hammers on the spot for your first 5 cities is a pretty large benefit, IMO. The important part is to translate this speed boost into something - anything. Barracks instead of Monuments for Kublai would be an example. Granaries again for Cathy - she needs the vertical growth to maximize her Imperialistic Settler benefit.

I confess that I went through a phase where I thought Creative was largely superfluous but after having to learn what to do to make up for it, I've come back around and realized that I could put the same resources I put into creating early-city culture and put that into something that synergizes with the Civ's other trait or UU.

Is a 30 hammer premium during your second and third cities worth half a trait? If you mark that up with cheap Libraries, I would think it's a almost worth the trait.

 

[Bleys]

Creative seems to be loved by the "newbs" and the "experts" and hated by everyone in between.

This is pretty insightful. I readily admit I was drawn to CRE right away, once I discovered how necessary it is to get fast border pops.

Once I started getting the "hang" of it, and began to understand the mechanics of whipping and chopping better, I started playing other traits, and using my new-found skill-set to get fast pops via the "whipped monument at pop 2" or the "pre-chopped forest in my new cities first-ring for a faster chopped Monument".

I am still in the "in-between" stages as well, and a LONG LONG way from "expert", where the extreme early game advantages of CRE can be parlayed into massive starts on the highest levels. I am already seeing the benefits of CREs middle game power in regard to warmongering (something I do . . . sorta ok, heh). The Theater is one of my fav mid-game buildings, and usually my first build in a newly conquered city (unless I am playing SPI, which means a Temple instead), so being able to get double production from this important part of the game, fast culture in conquered cities, is looking better and better to me.

Very solid analysis OTAK. Nailed this "inbetweener" right between the eyes.

 

[Xhaine]

Monuments are never more than a necessary evil imo. I'll usually want a Granary asap, so time spent building anything else first is time wasted. If there's no other choice but to build one, then a worker can usually be sent along to chop it out quickly. Failing that, grow fast and whip it.

On a map where I'm going to need lots of quick border pops, though, my preferred move is to get CoL from the Oracle, and use Caste System to run an Artist (or more than one if it's a conquered city). That'll pop those borders even faster than being Creative.

Obviously, this is no help if you need to stay in Slavery... But that's just another reason why Spiritual is my favourite trait - spend five turns in Caste System and you can pop all your new cities' borders. It's almost like being Creative.

While the culture bonus is always nice, I'd say the cheap buildings (esp. Libraries) are the main advantage of Creative once the first 2-3 cities have their fat crosses.

You must enjoy the incas then