Adding more Yields? [IMPLEMENTED]

Would you like to have these additional Yields?

  • No, WTP already has too many or at least enough Yields.

    Votes: 15 40.5%

  • Yes, I would like to have more Yields. The more the better.

    Votes: 22 59.5%
  • Total voters
    37
We have clarified these so far:
Yield Packages A) to D)
Yield Packages E) and F)
Yield Package G)
Yield Package H
Yield Package I

But even now we are simply not yet done. :dunno:
(Still a few more new Terrains to go.)

For example in branch "Plains" I introduced Terrain "Taiga" recently. (see here)
And thus Taiga needs to become interesting for gameplay by getting its own Yields as well.

For everybody interested in historical correctness of those, simply read in Wikipedia. :thumbsup:
(I need to reduce my time writing and explaining so I have more time for actually modding.)

J) Linen, Rapeseed Oil, Maple Sirup: 4 new Yields (Linen Fibers, Rapeseeds, Rapeseed Oil, Maple Sirup)

Spoiler :

The Plot Yields:
  • 1st Flatland Yield: Linen Fibers (Historically and even today infact a very important cash crop in North America, especially Canada)
  • 2nd Flatland Yield: Rape(seeds) (Historically and even today infact a very important cash crop in North America, especially Canada)
  • Hill Yield: Maple Sirup (well, what would North America be without Maple Sirup - a bit of "cliche" has to be sometimes)

Summarized:
  • 3 new Profession: Linen Planter, Rape Planter, Maple Sirup Collector
  • 3 new Expert: Expert Linen Planter, Expert Rape Planter, Expert Maple Sirup Collector
  • 2 old Improvements: Plantation and Collectors Post
  • 3 new Bonus Ressoruces: Flax, Rape, Maple Trees (all of them already created)
-----------------


The Breeding Yields:
(Not to be discussed in detail here - detailed concept still in work)
  • Flatland: Poultry (More about it in a following package about new "LiveStock Yields")
  • Hills: Goats (More about it in a following package about new "LiveStock Yields")

-----------------


The Produced Yields:
(no new Buildings, trying to reuse existing ones with Multiple Professions per Building)
  • Linen Fibers (see above) works as substitute of the Raw Yield Hemp (can be used to produce Ropes and Sailcloth in Specialbuilding Harbour as well)
It techncialyl requires 2 new Profession but there is no new Produced Yield.
Thus there is also no new Building and no new Expert.

----
  • Rapeseeds Oil (produced fro Rape) in Special Building Oil House by Profession Rape Oil Presser and Expert Master Oil Presser.
(The Building "Oil House" introduced above in I) now became Multiple Professions Per Building with 2 Professions. But still only 1 expert of course.)

----
  • Maple Sirup (see above) has no production chain involved and is simply an expensive Raw Yield (similar to Coca)
(So nothing new compared to the "Raw Yield" from Plot.)

Summarzized:
  • 3 new Professions
  • not a single new Expert
  • not a single new Building

-----------------

Total Summary "Olive Oil, Yerba de Coca and Vanilla":

New Yields:

  • Linen Fibres (a substitute for Hemp for producing Rope and Sailcloth)
  • Rape(seed), Rapeseed Oil
  • Maple Sirup
Otherwise:

  • 6 new Professions
  • 3 new Bonus Ressource (all already created)
  • no new Improvement
  • 3 new Experts
  • no new Building
Balancing Effects:

  • Special Building Oil Press from I) become Multiple Yields per Building
  • Gained an additional Terrain capable of constructing Ships with all required materials
  • One complete new Terrain "Taiga" fully balanced and interestingly integrated in the game.
 
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I updated the starting post:

raystuttgart said:
Udated to current status:

Yield Packages A) to D)
Yield Packages E) and F)
Yield Package G)
Yield Package H)
Yield Package I)
Yield Package J)

A) 4 new Yields (Feathers, Pillows, Padded Leather Coats, Padded Furniture)
B) 3 new Yields (Pigs, Cheap Skin, Cheap Leather)
C) 2 new Yields (Fruits, Hooch)
D) 2 new Yields (Logwood, Coloured Wool Cloth)
E) 2 new Yields (Wet Peat, Dried Peat)
F) 1 new Yield (Clay - strategic like Stone)
G) 2 new Yields (Peanuts, Roasted Peanuts)
H) 2 new Yields (Rice, Cassava)
I) 6 new Yields (Olives, Olive Oil, Yerba Leaves, Yerba de Coca, Vanilla Pods, Vanilla)
J) 4 new Yields (Linen Fibers, Rapeseeds, Rapeseed Oil, Maple Sirup)
Click to expand...

According to the currently published parts of the new Yield concept, we would have already 28 new Yields. :think:
(Main reason for that is that I had added several new Terrains in Plains and now want to balance them and also make them unique.)

-----------

Good news:
  • I can do a lot of that by turning a lot of the existing Buildings into "Mutliple Yields Per Building" or giving Profession Slots to Buildings currently without.
  • Everything I added so far is realistic, immersive and makes sense for game play and balance.
  • All of this fits really nicely with my other plans / concepts for Terrain Overhaul.
Personal taste:
  • Well, this is adding masses of new Yields, Professions and also some new Experts (although I try to reuse a lot of existing Experts).
  • The mod will get more complex considering economy and partially also more challenging.
  • Every Terrain will definitely feel unique and also I try to balance quite asymmetrically for the purpose of replayability in different starts.
Bad news:
  • I am still not done yet adding new Yields ...
  • This still gets quite a huge challenge for UI. May need to come up with a totally restructured City Interface ... :think:
  • ....
-----------

However, this is a fun project and I am having fun creating it. :)
Currently I am simply letting myself be creative and will see where the journey takes me ...

My goal is to create the "non-plus-ultra" version of WTP that contains all immersive Terrains and Yields that were historically important for the New World and make sense for gameplay.
But I also want to pay attention that this is still nice and smooth for gameplay and also does not cause issues for AI.

-----------

Last Published Version of WTP: 52 Yields
Currently Reveilled Parts of "Ray's Yield Explosion" concept: 28 Yields
Potentially Upcoming Parts of "Ray's Yield Explosion" concept: either Option A) 4 Yields or Option B) 10 Yields or Option C) 16 Yields

Total Sum:
Option A) 84 Yields ---> for UI it is possible to have 2 rows (42) or 3 rows (28) or 4 rows (21)
Option B) 90 Yields ---> for UI it is possible to have 2 rows (45) or 3 rows (30)
Option C) 96 Yields ---> for UI it is possible to have 2 rows (48) or 3 rows (32) or 4 rows (24)
  • Best UI Option for rows in variant.
  • Also possible and should be tried.
  • Possible if "shifting used - e.g. 2x24" (but not pretty)
  • Very bad for usability (no equal shifting)
Do not worry, I will get a good UI concept for this. :)

-----------

Puh, I was almost a bit shocked and thought this would become much work ...
But oh well, it is just a few Yields, Profession, Bonus Ressources, Experts, Buildings, ... :dunno:
 
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The City Import/Export list windows are already a tedious scrolling nightmare. If you don't know where something is, it can be frustrating to find it. Adding more yields will exacerbate that problem.
Now, if the windows could be made vertically longer (or resizeable), that would help a lot.
Maybe they already are and I don't know about it?

I wouldn't mind more yields except for that reason,
Richard
 
rap33042 said:
The City Import/Export list windows are already a tedious scrolling nightmare.
Click to expand...
One step after the other. :)
Improving Automated Trade Routes is a topic of its own.

Currently I can not even consider something like that - I have other todos first.
The concept and implementation is too big and complex to worry about such small details now.
 
raystuttgart said:
One step after the other. :)
Improving Automated Trade Routes is a topic of its own.

Currently I can not even consider something like that - I have other todos first.
The concept and implementation is too big and complex to worry about such small details now.
Click to expand...

Hi Ray,
Please don't take me wrong. I probably could have put it to you in a more diplomatic way.
I absolutely love what you folks have done with this game and only meant the above as an observation.

Richard
 
Well ok, we have talked about almost all important Terrain already, but we still missed these here:

The "Desert Types":
  • Cold: Permafrost (biggest changes)
  • Temperate: Rock Steppes (see here)
  • Hot: Desert
And also:
  • Tundra (Cold Wet) --> But to be discussed in another post though
-----

So what to do with those "Desert Terrain Types"? :)
(Old blanacing, new balancing - compared to "Plains")

----------

Desert (small rebalancing - no new Yield):
(Strategically important for Salt. A bit richer in Ore. Golds, Gems, Silver a bit more likely.)
  • 0 Food, no Plants, no LiveStock
  • +1 Ore, +3 Salt
  • Golds, Gems, Silver a bit more likely.
  • new Special Bonus Ressources / Terrain Features (already in branch "Plains") will allow to live there in some places
Summary: The "Salt" Terrain - if you are lucky very valuable minerals

----------

Rock Steppes (small rebalancing - no new Yield):
(Strategically important for Stone. A bit richer in Ore. Golds, Gems, Silver a bit more likely.)
  • 0 Food, no Plants, no LiveStock
  • +1 Ore, +3 Stone
  • Golds, Gems, Silver a bit more likely.
  • new Special Bonus Ressources / Terrain Features (already in branch "Plains") will allow to live there in some places
Summary: The "Stone" Terrain - if you are lucky very valuable minerals

----------

Permafrost (heavy rebalancing - new Yield):
(Strategically important for Coal. A bit richer in Ore. Golds, Gems, Silver a bit more likely.)
  • 0 Food, no Plants, no LiveStock
  • +1 Ore, +3 Coal
  • Golds, Gems, Silver a bit more likely.
  • new Special Bonus Ressources / Terrain Features (already in branch "Plains") will allow to live there in some places
Summary: The "Coal" Terrain - if you are lucky very valuable minerals

----------

K) Coal and Gunpower: 2 new Yields (Coal, Ammunition)

Coal will be as rare as Salt.
(Balancing will be very similar.)

It may pop-up by Bonus-Ressource Coal on Hills / Mountains in other Terrains.
But the only reliable source to get Coal in large quantities will be Permafrost (espcially Hills.)
  • new Profession: Coal Miner
  • new Bonus Ressource: Coal Deposit (already done)
  • old Improvement: Mine
  • old Expert: Expert Miner
----------

So ok, we will have Coal. And then what? Well we will use it to produce Gunpowder.
A new strategic Yield to equip troops (or build Ships) just like Horses, Blades, Guns and Cannons.
  • new Profession: Gunpowder Maker (turning Coal into Gunpowder)
  • old Expert: Master Gunsmith
  • old Special Building: Armory (+ Upgrades)
----------

Comment:

I considered to make this a bit more complicated and immersive but I will keep it simple for AI.
The simple chain "Coal -> Blackpowder" should be enough.

-----------------

Total Summary "Coal and Gunpowder":

New Yields:
  • Coal (about as rare as Salt, most common in Tundra)
  • Black Powder (Strategic Yield for equipping Troops or building Ships)
Otherwise:
  • 2 new Professions
  • 1new Bonus Ressource (already created)
  • no new Improvement
  • no new Expert
  • no new Building
Balancing Effects:
  • Permafrost is now properly balanced and interesting for gameplay.
  • 1 new Strategic Yield designed that has a lot of potential for further features.
------

Personal Comment:

I really wanted to finally give "Permafrost" a reason to exist in gameplay.
Before this change it was basically "dead space" on the map.
 
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raystuttgart said:
...
K) Coal and Black Power:
Click to expand...


upload_2021-8-3_17-31-46.png
A bit early...

So ok, we will have Coal. And then what? Well we will use it to produce Black Powder.
A new strategic Yield to equip troops (or build Ships) just like Horses, Blades, Guns and Cannons.
  • new Profession: Alchemist (turning Coal into Black Powder)
  • new Expert: Master Alchemist
  • old Special Building: Armory (+ Upgrades)
Click to expand...


The production of black powder/gun powder - isnt´t the formular salpetre, sulphur and charcoal? Just averages but about
"75 % Salpeter, 10 % Schwefel und 15 % Holzkohle"

Real coal from mines was used for melting iron to produce steel and for heating houses and less for gunpowder.
"North American coal deposits were first discovered by French explorers and fur traders along the shores of Grand Lake in central New Brunswick, Canada in the 1600s. Coal seams were exposed where rivers flowed into the lake and was dug by hand off the surface and from tunnels dug into the seam. About 1631 the French made their fur trading post at the mouth of the Saint John River their main post in Acadia and started construction of a new fort. The main residence at the fort was designed with two 11 foot wide fireplaces which were stocked with wood and coal from up river. As early as 1643, the French were sending coal and other supplies to the British colony at Boston. [12][13][14][15]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_coal_mining#cite_note-15
So - could the extraction of coal with mines be set back until a later age/era/technologial advance?

You could add wood to the demands of the citizens for heating and cooking until coal replaces it in a later age/era/technologial advance.
 
ConjurerDragon said:
So - could the extraction of coal with mines be set back until a later age/era/technologial advance?
Click to expand...
No, because we do not have techs yet and I can not implement 20 concepts all at once.
I have to start with one concept and then add others ...

ConjurerDragon said:
The production of black powder/gun powder - isnt´t the formular salpetre, sulphur and charcoal? Just averages but about
"75 % Salpeter, 10 % Schwefel und 15 % Holzkohle"
Click to expand...
I know that, but as I said will simplify this for resons of gameplay and AI.

It would simply be too tedious to collect 3 rare Yields to create black powder.
Which then again would be used to equip troops or build ships.

Something like that would kill all fun in gameplay.
And AI would never be able to handle it either.

I simply have to take care in my game design that concepts work for gameplay. :dunno:
 
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raystuttgart said:
So ok, we will have Coal. And then what? Well we will use it to produce Black Powder.
A new strategic Yield to equip troops (or build Ships) just like Horses, Blades, Guns and Cannons.
  • new Profession: Alchemist (turning Coal into Black Powder)
  • new Expert: Master Alchemist
  • old Special Building: Armory (+ Upgrades)
Click to expand...
For a profession why not just have gunpowder maker?, and master gunpowder maker. Alchemist just seems wrong.
 
Warmoonger said:
Alchemist just seems wrong.
Click to expand...
How do you think did people called somebody in the 16th century who created black powder that exploded?

In the 16th century such people were basically considered to do "black magic", thus calling them "Alchemist" was really normal.
A modern understanding of "Natural Science" as modern people like you and me may have, simply did not exist in these days.

It is actually the only historically correct name I can think of for that Profession. :dunno:
(A Profession name like "Gunpowder Maker" is a bit like calling a Butcher "Meat Maker" or a Weaver "Cloth Maker".)

Everything that was related to "Chemistry" was basically called "Alchemy" until late 17th or early 18th century.
(And even then the term "Alchemy" prevailed for at least a 100 more years in common language.)

Please read here.
(It is German but you can easily use Google translate)

Spoiler :
... the spectrum of alchemists extends from practical early chemists, manufacturers of gunpowder and pharmacists ...


Summary:

I was trying to find a Profession name that sounded a bit more historically correct or a bit more immersive.
However I will let the text specialists @Kendon or @Fürstbischof later decide. :dunno:
(I am for now just creating the features and later the experts for graphics and texts may further improve them.)
 
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From wikipedia:

Records show that, in England, gunpowder was being made in 1346 at the Tower of London; a powder house existed at the Tower in 1461; and in 1515 three King's gunpowder makers worked there.[50] Gunpowder was also being made or stored at other Royal castles, such as Portchester.[51] The English Civil War (1642–1645) led to an expansion of the gunpowder industry, with the repeal of the Royal Patent in August 1641.[50]

Notice how these people were described as gunpowder makers.
 
Warmoonger said:
Notice how these people were described as gunpowder makers.
Click to expand...
In a modern text yes. :)
(Which however says nothing how the profession was historically called.)

But do you think the people on the streets in the 16th century would have called them "Gunpowder Maker"?
Please trust me that these people were commonly called "Alchemists" in 16th century language.

Please read here. <--- It explains the term "Alchemy".
(It is German but you can easily use Google translate)

... the spectrum of alchemists extends from practical early chemists, manufacturers of gunpowder and pharmacists ...
Click to expand...
 
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"But do you think the people on the streets in the 16th century would have called them "Gunpowder Maker"?
Please trust me that these people were commonly called "Alchemists" in 16th century language."

I don't really understand this point. The game is not being played from the point of view of people on the streets in the 16th century.

A gunpowder maker would absolutely be understood as a gunpowder maker by the governors/kings asking him to make gunpowder, and not an 'alchemist'.
 
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@Warmoonger

Let us not further waste our time with this. :)
We discussed way to long about this already.

I will call it "Alchemist" for now because it is the most historically correct, flavourable and immersive name for the Profession - at least for me.
But if @Kendon or @Fürstbischof have a better more immersive name for the Profession they can rename it.
 
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An alternative would be to simply use the Gunsmith. Someone who manufactures gunpowder weapons can produce the gunpowder, too.

It were those smiths who invented the corning of gunpowder for greater effect
"
Corned powder
Shortly after 1400, smiths learned to combine the ingredients of gunpowder in water and grind them together as a slurry. This was a significant improvement in several respects. Wet incorporation was more complete and uniform than dry mixing, the process “froze” the components permanently into a stable grain matrix so that separation was no longer a problem, and wet slurry could be ground in large quantities by water-driven mills with little danger of explosion. The use of waterpower also sharply reduced cost."
 
ConjurerDragon said:
An alternative would be to simply use the Gunsmith.
Click to expand...
For the Expert ok. :thumbsup:
(We would then need 1 expert less.)

But we would still need to give the Profession a name.
But well, before we discuss here for 10 years I will simply call it then "Black Powder Maker" ... :rolleyes:

Edit:
Concept Part adjusted.
 
I love the Gunsmith expert idea.

But why black powder? Gunpowder just sounds a lot better (In English anyway)
 
Start to dislike it.
And sorry but cannot talk about that without the terrain overhaul - so must mix the two here.

Reason:
Concept seem to add for ALL plots "playability".
Deserts are good if have low value as in real.
Permafrost were dead land and even with modern technology still more or less that in this century.
Up to date certain "plots"/ areas are have low population/ km2 with reason.

So balanced yes - for gameplay.
Means: less likely affected by where does the colony exists. CC. no matter where does the player settle have more or less equal starting (in yields number/ value).

While in reality certain areas were more settled/ valuable.
Stands for colonial powers as well in the Americas. Sorry for the ones who prefer Sweden/ Denmark (sometimes I play with them as well) but they just don`t have equal chance with England/ France/ Spain-Portugal.
And that is real/ historical in that way.

This true for the new yields as it seems many is "to balance out" low value plots.
Also to terrain overhaul which is made in a way add X number of yield types and X number of overall yields -> cc. with the aim: equal for all (major?) plots.
And also in bonus resources: that is greatly expanded but potencially can make ANY area (includes deserts, tundra, (permafrost?) into a nice area to settle.

So to clear possible misunderstandings:
Still like both the new yields and new terrains (and bonuses) -> no plan to change vote on that

Dislike this forced equality/ give all plots/ areas value.

Start to become something like this:
https://static.gosugamers.net/da/09...2371e8d2362ec864295cd03cd1c4cab38b1dc0200.jpg

Some call it perfectly balanced - for me something like this is irreal/ awful (meaning that multiplayer SC map).

Hope that direction is more like my "fear" than valid goal.
 
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