Adding more Yields? [IMPLEMENTED]

[schueler]

Start to dislike it.
And sorry but cannot talk about that without the terrain overhaul - so must mix the two here.

Reason:
Concept seem to add for ALL plots "playability".
Deserts are good if have low value as in real.
Permafrost were dead land and even with modern technology still more or less that in this century.
Up to date certain "plots"/ areas are have low population/ km2 with reason.

So balanced yes - for gameplay.
Means: less likely affected by where does the colony exists. CC. no matter where does the player settle have more or less equal starting (in yields number/ value).

While in reality certain areas were more settled/ valuable.
Stands for colonial powers as well in the Americas. Sorry for the ones who prefer Sweden/ Denmark (sometimes I play with them as well) but they just don`t have equal chance with England/ France/ Spain-Portugal.
And that is real/ historical in that way.

This true for the new yields as it seems many is "to balance out" low value plots.
Also to terrain overhaul which is made in a way add X number of yield types and X number of overall yields -> cc. with the aim: equal for all (major?) plots.
And also in bonus resources: that is greatly expanded but potencially can make ANY area (includes deserts, tundra, (permafrost?) into a nice area to settle.

So to clear possible misunderstandings:
Still like both the new yields and new terrains (and bonuses) -> no plan to change vote on that

Dislike this forced equality/ give all plots/ areas value.

Start to become something like this:
https://static.gosugamers.net/da/09...2371e8d2362ec864295cd03cd1c4cab38b1dc0200.jpg

Some call it perfectly balanced - for me something like this is irreal/ awful (meaning that multiplayer SC map).

Hope that direction is more like my "fear" than valid goal.

Well. I kind of agree, but this is Ray's private mod as it is and also one can mod the modmod. A modmodmod!
A mere tweak to the xml files and the hot and icy deserts would be quite barren again.

I am looking forward to the extension, and one can still tweak it one's own private hellhole world.

 

[modmod]

Well. I kind of agree, but this is Ray's private mod as it is and also one can mod the modmod. A modmodmod!
A mere tweak to the xml files and the hot and icy deserts would be quite barren again.

I am looking forward to the extension, and one can still tweak it one's own private hellhole world.

Can tweak/ rebalance off course.
But simple prefer when stuff more or less "just fine as it is".

This was a feedback in case: "is that the direction?" (Or my perception false?)
Nothing enforced. That is good enought if Ray think about that.

Also some time ago I`am kind of pledged myself to support like update (RAR) America gigantic when the new terrains/ bonuses/ yields/ health overhaul are done. And that gets more difficult if my perception is true.

 

[raystuttgart]

Concept seem to add for ALL plots "playability".

No, it just adds "all plots have a destinct gameplay value".
Not all "plots being equaly playable".

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Some places are great for Food, others for Stone, others for Fur, others for ...
Wherever you settle it will play completely different and you will have to apply different strategies.

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So e.g.
Permafrost / Desert / Rock Steppes

• Still no food
  
• However some valuable Yields there
• Also some rare Bonus Ressources (for Food to at least allow tiny cities)

So is pure Permafrost (without any Bonus Ressources) playable?

• No, it is not, because you can not survive there without anything else. (like a Food Bonus Ressource)
  
• But there might be a few places (with valuable Yields) in Permafrost that make this extremely lucrative.

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This true for the new yields as it seems many is "to balance out" low value plots.

Yes, because I do not agree that there is currently not a single reason for the player to ever settle in Permafrost, Deserts, Rock Steppes ...
At least some places there should become interestint enough to consider it.

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Deserts are good if have low value as in real.

No sorry, I disagree.
For Food Deserts have low value. But they may have high value for e.g. Salt.
And maybe with a Bonus Ressource of "Prickly Pear" 2 Colonists you may even be able to live there.

Permafrost were dead land and even with modern technology still more or less that in this century.

And that is not going to generally change, because I do not generally give it more Food.
But there may be a Bonus Ressource Seals on the Coast that will allow you to live there.

With max 5 Food (e.g from Seals), nobody will have a mega Colony in Permafrost.
But a small Seal Hunters colony also digging a bit for Silver will be possible.

----

Summary:

You simply do not understand my concept yet.
Thus there is no point to continue discussing - we will be wasting our time.

The player will still have his major cities in Grasland, Savannah, ...
But a few small cities will also be in "Desert, Permafrost, Rock Steppes" due to extremely valuable Bonus Ressources.

Also this is not the only concept in work ...
So e.g. the extremely Cold, Hot, Wet, .... Terrains may have negative impacts to the Health / Happiness / Immigration (Crosses) / Culture ...

That is good enought if Ray think about that.

I hereby did. But it basically just wasted my time.
There is just misundestanding and fear I read in that post.

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In Permafrost if you are lucky and e.g. find Seals, you may have a city of 3 Colonists.
(And most likely you will only settle there if there is also Coal or Gold.)

In Savannah you may however have Cities of 60 Colonists.
(And it will produce Sugar, Coffe, Cocoa, Prime Lumber, ,...)

So are those now equally playable ???
Personally I do not thinks so ...

May both Cities be valuable enough to found them?
Probably yes, because a small City with Gold may still be worth a lot in early-game or mid-game

 

[modmod]

With max 5 Food (e.g from Seals), nobody will have a mega Colony in Permafrost.

You talk about when all plots are permafrost/ desert.
I talk about borderlands where those meet with other plots.

For example if there is 2 plot water, 3 tundra/ tajga, and 4 permafrost (even with one plot radius).
With 2 plot radius even more chance for bonus res. in area/ mixed plots.
Then that can grant food enought for cc. 10-15 colonist (with just 1-2 bonus res. + fishing ships) plus grants coal, furs, wood, Linen Fibers, Rapeseeds, Maple Sirup possibly silver, gold, ore, gems. Possibly also a small river in the non-permafrost side.
So borderlands sounds very valuable.
And leads to the potential strategy to settle activelly all those borderlands crowd them with small to mid size settlements.

So for example Alaska, Iceland, Greenland, Atlantic Canada becames very valuable.
So for example Denmark with 10 small/ mid size settlement can stand the same value in Iceland/ Greenland with England which have 4-5 larger in US East Coast. Or Russia spawns irreal number of settlements in Alaska.

Same for deserts, where food/ wood/ etc... comes from the non-desert plots, while the more rare salt/ stone/ silver from the deserts. With desert specific bonuses, like oasis, cactus, etc (where else can put those?) even more favorable to settle.

So:
The stuff (yields, terrains, bonuses) are real.
But:
Easily can lead to a non-real outcome.

Plots are quite specific and different.
Exactly if there is just one type of terrain that gets the lowest value even if that is the (in reality) most favorable type.

Some blending between plots can reduce it if mixed with latitude or other modifiers.
New yields/ terrains are work in progress so there is good chance to improve it before gets final.

 

[raystuttgart]

... before gets final.

How do you define "final"?

Something like "final" does not really exist in modding. Definitely not in the first release in which a feature is published.
There are only consecutive releases that may add new features, improve features or maybe even remove features.

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Very little will be perfect once it is released (for the first time).
Over the following releases though it usually gets improved and more mature.

And also "perfect" or "final" are defined very differently by every single player according to his personal taste.
A feature that I may consider to be "perfect or "final", may be considered "completely broken" or "unfinished" by somebody else.

------

But the great thing in modding is simply:
We can change everything to become perfect for ourselves.

That is the reason why we have become modders:
To create our own perfect game.

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Summary:

There is no point in discussing things like "final".
The only thing that matters is that stuff is created.
Once it is there, it can be changed and improved.

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Comment:

I will make this as good as possible in the first version. (But yes, according to my personal taste.)
But I have no doubt that it will need to be improved several times in the following releases.

Changing a bit of balancing in XML here and there should really be no issue.
And even bigger changes like adding / removing complete Yields might be done.

 

[Warmoonger]

Can tweak/ rebalance off course.
But simple prefer when stuff more or less "just fine as it is".

If you like the current WTP version nobody is going to take it away from you.

Why not just chill and let modders enjoy themselves.

 

[ConjurerDragon]

If you like the current WTP version nobody is going to take it away from you.
...

One could even create a new subfolder for each version, as if each version would be a different mod, and so be able to play different versions, if there would be worldshattering changes between versions.

 

[raystuttgart]

Currently considering to throw "Gunpowder" out of the list of "planned new Yields".

So yes, we could make it like this:

• Tools and Blades needed just Iron Ore and Lumber. (Currently they just need Iron Ore.)
  
• But Guns and Cannons needed both Iron Ore and Coal. (Now they just need Tools.)

This would also allow us to completely get rid of "Gunpowder".
(Just wanted it to do something with "Coal".)

Benefits:

• It should be AI friendly (because AI should use Tools for other stuff like Buildings)
• I have gained one more free Yield Slot do introduce some other maybe better Yield.

Comment:

Need to think about the part considering Lumber for Tools and Blades.
Because AI needs Lumber for Hammers and it already does not construct enough Buildings ...

Maybe I will also leave the "Gunpowder" in there.
A modmod might want to use it to create some kind of "Ammunition Supply" feature ...

-----

Will have to think about it.
(I am not sure yet.)

 

[raystuttgart]

These are the last 2 Yields I want to introduce:
(I have to stop then for UI reasons, see below)

H) Planks and Poultry: 2 new Yields (Ship Planks and Poultry)

Ship Planks

• Produced from Valuable Wood (new Profession: Ship Plank Cutter, old Expert: Master Carpenter, old Special Building: Carpentry)
  
• Strategic Yield needed to construct Ships (like Sailcloth)

Just 1 new Yield and 1 new Profession. (no new Exper, no new Building)
Valuable Wood will become more valuable for gameplay - not just cash yield.

Poultry (aka. Chicken)

• Allows Livestock Breeding (on "Shrubland", "Taiga" and "Tundra") of Chicken (Yield Chicken) that can be slaughtered for Food and Feathers.
• Potential extra condition for Livestock Breeding of Chicken (and also Pigs) : Improvement Pen first (Human Player only)

• new Profession for Breeding: Chicken Farmer
  
• old Expert: Farmer
• new Improvement(s): Pen / Large Pen (needed already for Pigs)
• new Profession for Slaughtering: Chicken Butcher
• old Expert: Butcher
• old Special Building: Butcher's House

--------------

So ok, this here is the status:

Links to previous explanations:
Yield Packages A) to D)
Yield Packages E) and F)
Yield Package G)
Yield Package H)
Yield Package I)
Yield Package J)
Yield Pakage K)

A) 4 new Yields (Feathers, Pillows, Padded Leather Coats, Padded Furniture)
B) 3 new Yields (Pigs, Cheap Skin, Cheap Leather)
C) 2 new Yields (Fruits, Hooch)
D) 2 new Yields (Logwood, Coloured Wool Cloth)
E) 2 new Yields (Wet Peat, Dried Peat)
F) 1 new Yield (Clay - strategic like Stone)
G) 2 new Yields (Peanuts, Roasted Peanuts)
H) 2 new Yields (Rice, Cassava)
I) 6 new Yields (Olives, Olive Oil, Yerba Leaves, Yerba de Coca, Vanilla Pods, Vanilla)
J) 4 new Yields (Linen Fibers, Rapeseeds, Rapeseed Oil, Maple Sirup)
K) 2 new Yields (Coal and Gunpowder)
H) 2 new Yields (Ship Planks and Poultry)

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WTP alread has 52 old tradable Yields.
My concept would add 32 new tradable Yields.

84 Yields is my goal as Total Number of Yields because it allows best UI options.

Option A) 84 Yields ---> for UI it is possible to have 2 rows (42) or 3 rows (28) or 4 rows (21)

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Summary:

I am finally done with my "planning" and "concept work" for the new tradable Yields.
Unless anything unforseen should happen the Yields above are the "final concept" I want to add.


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Small hidden Spoiler:

Spoiler :

By the way, I also have concepts for "non-tradable" Yields like e.g. Yield Administration.
But that would become too much to discuss here as well because those are features of their own and not related to Terrains / Terrain Features and Ressources.

 

[CirqueDuMal]

Hi Ray,

I'm reading though this, and a lot of it is exciting... (I totally understand people's reservations too... looks like a lot more things to manage!)

As I think through this I have a few questions...

---
Peanuts... why wouldn't this just be a food resource?
I see that you have them being processed into Roasted Peanuts, (which is cool and accurate!) but in the end they are just food like fish, corn, potatoes, melons, pumpkins, amongst others...

---
Feathers... should it just be called feathers? or should it be called "Down"?
"Master Padder" should this be "Master Upholder"? (This was the old word for "upholsterer")
Not sure I like "Pillows" feels like it is too specific, I can't think of a more generic term though... Maybe "Bedding"? that would include things like a Duvet as well

---
When you add Rapeseed Oil and Olive Oil, consider changing Train Oil back to Whale Oil
Going down this train of thought, you could also have animal fat or animal oil or maybe tallow as a product

---
Some of these things would make sense for a demand on the domestic market while some would not... Rapeseed vs Rapeseed Oil
If I think of it as one of the other current yields in game, Rapeseed is the raw material, Rapeseed Oil would have a domestic demand.
If there is a demand from the domestic market, I would want to supply it to my cities.

---
My playstyle involves a core of Mega cities (Sometimes population 70+), being supplied by smaller cities to generate cash on the domestic market.
There are currently 18 products demanded on the domestic market... My current setting is to import 75 of each product
This uses a lot of space to devote to this, but a fully build colony has 3700 storage (Granted food, animals, tools, weapons, plus that cities own production take up that space)

---
Not every colony needs to have every raw material. (In fact they should not!)
But every colony needs to have those demanded products (Currently the 18)
I might need more storage... but I'm not sure that is the right thing to do...
Maybe a separate market storage? But that would be a big departure from the way things are currently done.

 

[modmod]

"Taiga" and "Tundra")

For chicken?
In very cold temperature chickens are not that good.
In very cold areas they kept mainly larger animals, in North Scandinavia/ some parts of Siberia (taiga/ tundra) for example even Reindeer herding.
So in colder areas preferred larger animals basically.

 

[raystuttgart]

@CirqueDuMal

This is all "Work in Progress". It is heavily iterative and creative - some would call my work of modding "chaotic".
I do not yet know all the answers to such detailed questions but I will find them while I create.

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So yes, these Yields will be used in Domestic Market.
Balancing will need to be tested and is currently just "vague ideas".
And maybe also the Storage Limit will be increased.
And most likely also the naming will change several times.
...

----------

But guys, that is all just simple XML which every beginner knowing almost nothing of Civ4Col modding can easily change.
Thus it is nothing to really worry about and does not need to be discussed in detail now.
(It is at most the last 10% if the work and easy to change anyways.)

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Peanuts... why wouldn't this just be a food resource?

Because it really was historically mostly a "cash crop" for trade.
It was hardly used as "food crop" because other food crops were much better.

Feathers... should it just be called feathers? or should it be called "Down"?

Sure, why not. I am a programmer and game designer and hardly care about such details of naming - others simply know better.
Once it is done I will ask some text writers (e.g. @Fürstbischof or @Kendon) to take a look and improve my XML text entries.
Whatever they will call it, it will be ok for me.

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But see, that is just "detail discussion" that is really wasting my time.
There are 1000 personal tastes and everybody wants to have things done differently.

Thus I will simply create something, show it to the other WTP modders and let them then decide if they like it or not.
Then we may also discuss which parts we may integrate into WTP core mod and what needs to be changed or not ...

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Summary:

Less talk about tiny details, more modding.
Once things are actually implemented (to be shown) we can still improve them.

 

[raystuttgart]

For chicken?

That is why I wrote this here:

Potential extra condition for Livestock Breeding of Chicken (and also Pigs) : Improvement Pen first (Human Player only)

Actually e.g. Canada is and was one of the largest "Poultry" producers in the World.
Chicken in Pens do and did not really need the best meadows, lots of food or warm temperature - in contrary to Horses, Cattle and Pigs bred in the open.
(That is why they are and were often bred in areas that are not perfect for farming or breeding larger animals.)

Simple equation:
The worse the land for "Breeding Large Herds of Animals" or "Large Plantations" or "Large Crop Farms", the more likely it is that "Poultry Breeding" or "Pig Breeding" (in pens) will be done there.

 

[raystuttgart]

even Reindeer herding.

I thought about it.

Even already have the Bonus Ressource ingame ...
But I will implement it as a "Hunting Ressource".

Explanation:

I decided against "Caribou LiveStock Breeding" because "Caribou" / "Reindeer" were never bought in Europe and never bred in the New World by European Colonists and also not traded in any mentionable quantities with the Old World.
It would simply be ahsitorical and unimmersive to have "White Europeans" breed "Caribou" like the Native Eskimos did. --> It simply does not fit the "Colonial Reality".

----

Poultry however is 100% historically correct.
It was brought as LiveStock from the Old World and soon bred in masses in the New World.
(Especially in cold regions of Northern America and also in dry regions of Central or Southern America.)

 

[modmod]

Actually e.g. Canada is and was one of the largest "Poultry" producers in the World.

https://www.statista.com/topics/5441/poultry-industry-in-canada/

That claims 11. on worldwide.
Also:
Trade

• Volume of chicken imported to Canada
  176.34k mt
• Volume of turkey exported from Canada
  28.07k mt
• Volume of chicken exported from Canada
  138.24k mt

And this is modern industry.
Even on a small scale we kept infra lamps during winter (chicken house) - and chickens preffered to sleep at hight on the wood rods instead down at the straw more close to the lamps (fox/ others were no issue as the chicken house at night were closed with a steel door so not because predators), and here temperature rarely falls bellow -20 Celsius so far from the sometimes -50 in tundras.

in contrary to Horses, Cattle and Pigs bred in the open.

They can be kept indoors at cold winter.
Even vikings kept them indors - in the longhouses during winter.
And were stables.

True only some sub-type fit to be kept at the open during winter, like: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_Grey

 

[raystuttgart]

To summarize:

This here is the best list of Yields I could come up with.
(Everything else would have either had less value for gameplay or would have been too unimmersive.)

So ok, this here is the status:

Links to previous explanations:
Yield Packages A) to D)
Yield Packages E) and F)
Yield Package G)
Yield Package H)
Yield Package I)
Yield Package J)
Yield Pakage K)

A) 4 new Yields (Feathers, Pillows, Padded Leather Coats, Padded Furniture)
B) 3 new Yields (Pigs, Cheap Skin, Cheap Leather)
C) 2 new Yields (Fruits, Hooch)
D) 2 new Yields (Logwood, Coloured Wool Cloth)
E) 2 new Yields (Wet Peat, Dried Peat)
F) 1 new Yield (Clay - strategic like Stone)
G) 2 new Yields (Peanuts, Roasted Peanuts)
H) 2 new Yields (Rice, Cassava)
I) 6 new Yields (Olives, Olive Oil, Yerba Leaves, Yerba de Coca, Vanilla Pods, Vanilla)
J) 4 new Yields (Linen Fibers, Rapeseeds, Rapeseed Oil, Maple Sirup)
K) 2 new Yields (Coal and Gunpowder)
H) 2 new Yields (Ship Planks and Poultry)

I have had many more ideas originally and dropped many of them again.
(Main reason is that I purposely limited my list to 32.)

Especially the selection of the last 2 Yields for the list was tough - which is also the reason why I took my time.
(I have had several good candidates that I would have had liked on the líst.)

I did not simply want to "copy something that already existed" for masses of new Cash Yields.
I wanted to add stuff for gameplay but also for historical correctness / immersion.

• Balancing of new Terrains / Terrain Features.
• Improving balancing of existing Terrains and yes I saw weeknesses there.
  
• Improving balancing of currently new value Experts and Buildings.
  
• Preparing potentially upcomigng future Features
• Adding a bit more diversification and historical accuraccy.
• ...

 

[modmod]

Even already have the Bonus Ressource ingame ...
But I will implement it as a "Hunting Ressource".

Agree on that.
That was an example about larger animals more fit to the north than chicken.

Poultry however is 100% historically correct.

Sure that is true.
There is no question about chickens in the New World. Question about: which plot fits them.
But larger animals indoor at winter more fit than chicken indoor at winter in very cold areas.

 

[raystuttgart]

@modmod

Should we waste our time discussing forever again about tiny details?

As I said, I have given my best to come up with a good list for gameplay and immersion.
And as I also said am going to implement this in my private version first.

Then I will show it to the other guys and discuss with them if they want it to become WTP core mod or not.
Maybe also changes will be made then or maybe during my work on this I will also improve my concept.

But currently I see nothing in there that I do not like.
Also I see nothing in there that is historically unimmersive.

Summary:

For now that is my plan. I have thought pretty long about it.
If somebody has better ideas he may suggest them and I will read of course.

 

[modmod]

@raystuttgart

Ok for me.

Anyway no matter that will be part of the core or not I wish to have it that not changed.

Some details -> then change myself.

 

[modmod]

What about black powder?
As it was discussed probably gets replaced.

In case that gets:
Leather boots can fit in (from normal, not from cheap leather).

Feathers will get many use (4 included the raw material), with boots leather can get +1.