Adding more Yields? [IMPLEMENTED]

ConjurerDragon · Jul 26, 2021

Vanilla is a plant that is difficult to harvest. Attempts to grow it in Europe failed as the insect that pollinated the american plant originating in Yucatan did not exist in Europe. And only 1841 on Reunion the manual method to handpollinate the plant was developed that allowed the farmers to "help" the insects to make sure that all flowers were pollinated and increased the yield.

Would it be possible to start with a low yield and only in later ages/eras/tech levels raise it when the manual method is developed after it had been brought to Europe and failed to be pollinated there?

raystuttgart · Jul 26, 2021

ConjurerDragon said:
Attempts to grow it in Europe failed ...

Why grow it in Europe? :confused:

It is a plant native to Southern America and was discovered by the first conquistadors.

Vanilla is supposed to become a rare and highly expensive "Luxury Yield" almost like Silver.
I will introduce a few of these "super expensive" plant yields - as that is a bit different as those "super expensive" mineral yields.

ConjurerDragon · Jul 26, 2021

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/bittersweet-story-vanilla-180962757/

"The Spanish conquest of the Aztecs in 1519 brought the fragrant flower—and its companion, cacao—to Europe. Vanilla was cultivated in botanical gardens in France and England, but never offered up its glorious seeds. Growers couldn’t understand why until centuries later when, in 1836, Belgian horticulturist Charles Morren reported that vanilla’s natural pollinator was the Melipona bee, an insect that didn’t live in Europe. (A recent study, however, suggests that Euglossine bees may actually be the orchid’s primary pollinator.)

Five years later, on the island of Réunion, a 39-mile long volcanic hotspot in the Indian Ocean, everything changed. In 1841, an enslaved boy on the island named Edmond Albius developed the painstaking yet effective hand-pollination method for vanilla that is still in use today, which involves exposing and mating the flower’s male and female parts. His technique spread from Réunion to Madagascar and other neighboring islands, and eventually worked its way back to Mexico as a way to augment the vanilla harvest pollinated by bees."

So in short: The plant originated in Yucatan with the Toltecs, when the Aztecs conquered the Toltecs they started to use vanilla in their chocolatl and when the spanish conquered the Aztecs they first brought vanilla to Europe, but for more than a decade just as one ingredient to chocholatl. The harvest was always small because the natural pollination is a lottery - the plants flowers opens only a very limited time and if that time passes without the right insect passing by at the right time it closes and falls off without being pollinated - no harvest. There still woulde be *some* harvest as the insects sometimes get lucky and get the flower before closing but only after the manual method was developed it ensured that *most* flowers were pollinated and raised harvests significantly.

devolution · Jul 27, 2021

I think it's about time that we consider a general mechanism to allow us to support (in principle!) an arbitrary amount of yields. It all boils down to how to display the yields in the city view without excessive clutter.

Here's a proposal: Let's have a fixed top row that consists of the "important" yields like food, lumber, tools etc. This row will always be visible.

Then we need to find a way to dynamically show the rest of the yields, should they be present

We could consider:

a) Replacing the existing yield view with a panel with a scrollbar (which I think is feasible)
b) Generate another row (or two..n) if those yields are present. Note that the position of yields would not be fixed. However, they would be arranged by their index in YieldTypes so it should be systematic enough
c) Implement a way to toggle\swap which yields are displayed in the second row.
d) Like c) but with a filter button that selects a subset of yields ("raw" cash yields, manufactures cash yields, etc) Only two rows would ever be visible at any given time.

If we come up with a decent system it should be trivial to add new yields without worrying about layout issues and this could hopefully make it far easier to make crazy mod-mods!

Mr. ZorG · Jul 27, 2021

in my humble opinion, option A (Replacing the existing yield view with a panel with a scrollbar (which I think is feasible)) is the most preferable. when implementing it, you do not need to spend a lot of time on tuning and so on - just scrolling.
the question is whether to scroll horizontally or vertically. I think vertical will be better since you can use the mouse wheel anywhere in the yield bar.

Nightinggale · Jul 27, 2021

devolution said:
If we come up with a decent system it should be trivial to add new yields without worrying about layout issues and this could hopefully make it far easier to make crazy mod-mods!

I would like to add that I created the branch "YieldCategory", which removes a lot of the yield hardcoding and it even allows adding yields in pure xml (excluding yields with custom coding, such as crosses). I think it should be merged before anybody adds more yields.

I haven't quite worked out what to do with the yield bar, but I once stated that I want it to be in a unique python file rather than being part of the main interface. That will help with clean code, which in turn helps if we want to add code to control what goes where in any way other than following yield indexes. Placement only matters while setting up the widgets as everything done after that will rely on widget ID and/or iData1 and iData2.

One approach could be to have a yield tag in CvYieldInfo, which tells the name of the yield on top of the yield in question. That way we can place finished goods under the raw material and once we have done that, the rest of the slots can be filled out. That will ensure a decent layout even if some yields are hidden, either by display settings or locked by CivEffects.

One thing I would like to add is that the yield bar can be made to consider screen resolution. We can make it display differently on stuff like 4:3, 16:9 or ultra wide.

devolution · Jul 27, 2021

This is a brief list of "other stuff" that is related to how yields are processed and needs to be cleaned up:

- The special cases for food, lumber etc in the code that ensures that these cannot "spoil" / does not take up storage. These checks are scattered throughout the code, including the Main interface
- "Breedable" yields (horses, sheep, cattle) that requires an initial stock
- Future yields that would be unlocked by tech/advances

Having some form of XML support for indicating these special attributes would be nice!

One more thing though, I am opposed to the proliferation of yield rows. I think that we should think very careful about adding a third row since it really doesn't solve any problems IMO.
At some point the entire city screen may be covered by those darn yield boxes LOL.

Nightinggale · Jul 27, 2021

devolution said:
- The special cases for food, lumber etc in the code that ensures that these cannot "spoil" / does not take up storage. These checks are scattered throughout the code, including the Main interface
- "Breedable" yields (horses, sheep, cattle) that requires an initial stock

I added bools in xml for that in YieldCategory. I think I called Breedable for "bLivestock", but I would have to look it up to be sure.

devolution said:
- Future yields that would be unlocked by tech/advances

There is an InfoArray for that in CivEffects. If I recall correctly, it's not fully implemented in the DLL since at the time there was no gameplay need for it and it ended up with a lower priority. At some point I considered adding one for "can produce" as Colonization 2071 has the concept of unlocking yields in two steps. First is the ability to trade and store and the second is to also produce it. Just like the tag for unlocking unit classes on the dock, it requires both allowed and production to be true to produce the yield in question. This means unlocking a yield will also unlock production unless a CivEffect explicitly unlocks production. This means added flexibility in xml without making xml more complex to set up unless this feature is explicitly required.

EDIT: I have also considered the option of caches of caches. For instance a build would require unlocking the build in question and the improvement. We can make such logical implicits be used all over without a performance hit if it's cached in the CvPlayer part of CivEffects.

raystuttgart · Jul 27, 2021

devolution said:
Having some form of XML support for indicating these special attributes would be nice!

100% agree in general. :thumbsup:

But who is doing it and when.

I am busy as hell with all the stuff I want to implement.
And at the moment I can only work with that I have. :dunno:

----

I will simply not wait for 1 more year until I start adding more Yields. :dunno:

And when I start adding more Yields I will simply use the technical possibilities I have.

Afterwards if somebody would improve it, that would be awesome of course. :thumbsup:

But to be honest I will focus on gameplay first when I start implementing this and not nice adaptability for the future.

----

Summary:

I am also quite busy and I am currently working on all of this alone.
My solution may not be perfect but it will work for gameplay - at least for the modmod I create.

Please lower your expectations a bit.
A single private modder can not do all of that in perfection.

----

Once my solution is implemented it can be improved in any way.

And I am happy for all improvements somebody may do. :thumbsup:

----

If one of you guys will implement these nice improvements for Yields before I start adding new Yields, I will of course happily use them. :thumbsup:

(But my focus is and will stay to implement the gameplay I want. Once that is done I might invest effort in other stuff.)

Fürstbischof · Jul 27, 2021

devolution said:
Then we need to find a way to dynamically show the rest of the yields, should they be present

As already proposed earlier to @raystuttgart, we should consider adding the demands of the domestic market as actual demand of the colony to be shown as usual below the yield icons themselves. Thus having the yield rows filled dynamically would save us some needless clicking and give us a better overview of transport needs.

devolution said:
b) Generate another row (or two..n) if those yields are present. Note that the position of yields would not be fixed. However, they would be arranged by their index in YieldTypes so it should be systematic enough

modmod · Jul 27, 2021

Probably I have the lowest expectation.

A simple button to click on -> at the left and right the end of the present yields.
Which leads to another two rows for all the new yields.
So all stays the same, and even double of the present ammount have space.

No scrolling so laptop friendly no mouse scroll needs.
Nice separation between the traditonal and new yields.
Can keep the layout where raw and finished goods are paired in the rows.
Minimal extra space used in UI (opposed with 3 rows) while adds more space.
Nothing forces to add certain number of new yields (for graphical/ resolution reasons)
Some semi-opaque graphic can fill the parts where no new yields presented yet.

What you guys mean by "filled dynamically"?
Because if it changes the layout based on actual production vs. the present raw - finished pairs then I like more the present one.

devolution · Jul 28, 2021

It would perhaps be helpful to have a couple of inbetween alternatives like:

- "Yes, I would like to have more Yields if they are integrated with the gameplay \ makes sense \ are not simply another cash-yield etc".

raystuttgart · Jul 30, 2021

@devolution

I "only" want to add Yields (and Professions) for these reasons.

1. Balance: I have lots of new Terrains / Terrain Features that I want to balance and still make distinct.
2. Balance: There are Buildings / Experts (e.g. for Furniture) that need to be improved considering gameplay value.
3. Balance: I feel that this game needs more challenge. Some Yields may help me to do that. (see below Ammunition / Ship Lumber)
4. Immersion: I e.g. added Birds but I want Birds to be hunted just like Fur Animals. (So they will give "Feathers" + "Food")
5. Immersion: I will add new Plants that realistically fit into new World (e.g. Logwood, ...) but they simply do not match exisiting Yields.
6. Immersion: Sometimes I feel that Yields should be depicted historically correct (e.g. Rice, which was both "food crop" and "cash crop")
7. Game Mechanics: For game concept "Health Overhaul Concept" I simply also use Fruits and I need to make them a bit different.
8. Game Mechanics: For game concept like "Military Overhaul" I simply want to add "Coal", "Salpeter", "Ammunition", ...
9. Game Mechanics: For game concept like "Construction Overhaul" I simply want to add "Ship Lumber", "Tar", "Clay", ...
10. I also experiment: e.g. with "Vanilla" (as valuable as "Silver" but simply a very rare plant instead of a rare mineral)

----

And I will do most of that without adding new Buildings or Experts - because my goal is not to do so.
(I mostly only need new Yields and new Professions and make better usage of existing Buildings and Experts.)

----

See, we could be discussing here to death and would never find a consense.
Mostly because people simply do not even know how my final vision looks like or do not want to wait for it.

I often plan and create content 3 Releases ahead.
So at the point of time when the first part is finished it may seem pointless and stupid.

But I am simply not modding "short sighted" for the next month or next release.
I am modding by a "big master plan" - which I call my "vision".

----

I will not discuss which Yields I will add or not anymore, because it really wastes my time.
I will simply create it, show you guys what I did and offer it for integration into WTP.

It may not be perfect in the first version considering graphics, texts, screens, ... if I do it all alone.
But at least I can create and show something that might or might not convince the team and community.

If WTP and community like what I did that is great and I will love to see it published.
If WTP and community do not like, well I will still like it myself and simply play with it in my private WTP modmod.

----

Summary:

I am really fed up discussing what I may mod or may not mod.
I do have "my vision". (And I will follow it even if have to do so alone.)

In the end there is no "failure" or "success" in modding.
There is only "fun" or "frustration" - and I clearly chose fun.

devolution · Jul 30, 2021

ok, ray. Calm down

. I shall patiently await the result :crazyeye:

raystuttgart · Jul 30, 2021

devolution said:
ok, ray. Calm down .

Ok sorry.

Spoiler :

devolution said:
I shall patiently await the result

Thanks.

I would at least like to get a chance to show team and community a "prototype".
Then my work shall be judged if it is interesting / good enough to become part of WTP core mod.

----

Otherwise

Spoiler :

raystuttgart · Jul 30, 2021

@Schmiddie

Quite some time ago you created these Building graphics for "Roasteries" here:
(I still have them in my archive.)

I am currently considering to make use of them for my "new Yields". :think:

(I know I originally said that I do not want to add new Buildings / Indoor Experts but it would be a pitty to waste those great graphics.)

But before I do integrate (in my "prototype build") I would like to discuss with you if you already have other plans to use them.
I want to avoid causing a conflict for your own work.

Schmiddie · Jul 30, 2021

@ ray:

I would be happy to see them ingame and that you found a suitable use for it! I have currently no other ideas for them...

raystuttgart · Jul 30, 2021

So ok guys, I will introduce and discuss my concept about new Yields.
I am open for questions, improvements and suggestions considering specific details.

Please read:

Spoiler :

So ok, as a first trial I will start with this.
Let us see how team and communtiy react.

A) Stuff with Feathers: 4 new Yields (Feathers, Pillows, Padded Leather Coats, Padded Furniture)
(Changes are unlikely or will be minimal.)

Spoiler :

B) Breeding Pigs: 3 new Yields (Pigs, Cheap Skin, Cheap Leather)
(Changes are unlikely or will be minimal.)

Spoiler :

C) Fruits and Hooch: 2 new Yields (Fruits, Hooch)
(Changes are unlikely or will be minimal.)

Spoiler :

D) Wet Logwood: 2 new Yields (Logwood, Coloured Wool Cloth)
(Changes are likely - still trying to work out balance of new Terrains - this is affected.)

Spoiler :

--------------------------------------

But be warned, this is just the beginning ... :mischief:

We have just talked about the "crazy birds, dirty pigs, cheap booze and wet wood stuff" yet.

Acheron81 · Jul 30, 2021

Hi Ray, I'll weigh in on this:

B) Breeding Pigs. I get that this will make wetlands and marsh tiles more valuable and distribute the livestock yields more evenly. Would you consider this idea? Make pigs produced in towns, rather than on pastures outside of town. We could add a worker slot to the stable building where a master rancher might work. Or maybe make a new building such as stockyard or feed lot that produces pigs and provides bonuses to the other livestock yields. My reasoning on this is simply that pigs aren't raised on pastures, but in pens or runs, or whatever. The whole point of raising pigs is that they don't require a pasture per se, but can be fed on corn, peas, acorns, food scraps etc. This may seem overpowered, but because it's a town building it can only be built once in each colony, limiting the total amount of food produced this way.

Butchered pigs produce cheap skins > cheap leather. So I had to look this one up. I'm not really familiar with what pigskin is used for other than that it used to be used for footballs. Apparently it is or was also important in making shoes, hand bags, and other cheap leather stuff. Do we really need this yield? I don't see a problem with making pigs just used for food only. Of course we'd have to bump up the amount of food produced by the butcher from each pig to feed all the workers in the food chain (rancher and butcher) and still keep it economical.

C) Fruits and Hooch. New yield FRUIT, a generic term that covers apples, lemons, bananas, pineapple etc. Yes this is a good idea. I remember in civ4 where you had to collect as many different food types as you could, and the more the variety you had the bigger the boost you would get to health in your cities. I always liked this mechanic and was constantly trying to supply my cities with every food resource. I think a similar mechanic would fit well with this mod. Now you've got me thinking, maybe we need 3 food types: grain, meat and fruits + vegetables. Provide all 3 types in your colony for maximum health boost, fail to provide one and suffer a health penalty.

If you're going to create a new profession for fruit merchant, I'd suggest just making a more generic profession MERCHANT. The merchant works in the town market and sells yields determined by all domestic demand, not just fruit. I don't know if this could be done, just a thought.

FRUIT > HOOCH. :lol:

I wasn't happy with this name at first but then I realized I can't think of a better generic term for liquor distilled from fruit. The only other option I can think of is CIDER, but that only works for apples and maybe lemons? I don't know, we've got beer, wine, rum and now hooch, is time to just replace them all with LIQUOR or SPIRITS? There's not much difference between them other than price.

D) Wet Logwood. The whole idea is good and realistic. But will you not be able to use it to dye cotton cloth also?

A) Feathers. In short, I'm not sold on this idea at all. For ducks and waterfowl it makes some sense, but I've never heard of hunting seagulls and parrots for feathers. I think the down for pillows and padded clothing usually comes from farm raised birds. I would say, just give tiles with seagulls, parrots and other wilds bird a flat bonus to food production produced by hunters and leave it at that. But all in all, this idea might work out, especially if in the future you further develop the clothing line of goods. For example I can see padded leather coats being required for whalers or seal hunters.

So that's just my opinion of course. All said I would rather see all 4 options implement exactly as you described rather than not over the above disagreements.

Finally I will add that I'm nearly finished with my map. It just needs a few more native tribes placed and some balancing. I'll be out of town next week but when I come back I plan to release ASAP.

ConjurerDragon · Jul 31, 2021

Acheron81 said:
...
B) Breeding Pigs. I get that this will make wetlands and marsh tiles more valuable and distribute the livestock yields more evenly. Would you consider this idea? Make pigs produced in towns, rather than on pastures outside of town. We could add a worker slot to the stable building where a master rancher might work. Or maybe make a new building such as stockyard or feed lot that produces pigs and provides bonuses to the other livestock yields. My reasoning on this is simply that pigs aren't raised on pastures, but in pens or runs, or whatever. The whole point of raising pigs is that they don't require a pasture per se, but can be fed on corn, peas, acorns, food scraps etc. This may seem overpowered, but because it's a town building it can only be built once in each colony, limiting the total amount of food produced this way.

A pig farm stinks. Modern ones far more due to the sheer number of pigs concentrated but smallers ones too.. So I doubt that pigs would be raised in the citycenter but on farms "outside" the city where additionally it would be easier to get them fed (e.g. by having a pigherder have them feast on acorns in a forest)
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eichelmast

...
C) Fruits and Hooch. New yield FRUIT, a generic term that covers apples, lemons, bananas, pineapple etc. Yes this is a good idea. I remember in civ4 where you had to collect as many different food types as you could, and the more the variety you had the bigger the boost you would get to health in your cities. I always liked this mechanic and was constantly trying to supply my cities with every food resource. I think a similar mechanic would fit well with this mod. Now you've got me thinking, maybe we need 3 food types: grain, meat and fruits + vegetables. Provide all 3 types in your colony for maximum health boost, fail to provide one and suffer a health penalty.

We just have to remember that cooling was not a thing back then so importing e.g. bananas from South America was difficult and even small delays could spoil the whole load. People used to consume locally produced fruits and vegetables before cooling became commonly available on transports.Having an additional fruit add a negligible amount of health is fine but requiring to have all fruits of the continent available in cities of larger sizes, e.g. in the New York of 1700+ is not realistic.

If you're going to create a new profession for fruit merchant, I'd suggest just making a more generic profession MERCHANT. The merchant works in the town market and sells yields determined by all domestic demand, not just fruit. I don't know if this could be done, just a thought.

FRUIT > HOOCH. I wasn't happy with this name at first but then I realized I can't think of a better generic term for liquor distilled from fruit. The only other option I can think of is CIDER, but that only works for apples and maybe lemons? I don't know, we've got beer, wine, rum and now hooch, is time to just replace them all with LIQUOR or SPIRITS? There's not much difference between them other than price.

The major difference is who drinks what. Different settlers drink different beverages according to their social status and demand that beverage on the local market. Mixing all beverages to "liquor" blurishes that distinction.

D) Wet Logwood. The whole idea is good and realistic. But will you not be able to use it to dye cotton cloth also?

A) Feathers. In short, I'm not sold on this idea at all. For ducks and waterfowl it makes some sense, but I've never heard of hunting seagulls and parrots for feathers. I think the down for pillows and padded clothing usually comes from farm raised birds. I would say, just give tiles with seagulls, parrots and other wilds bird a flat bonus to food production produced by hunters and leave it at that. But all in all, this idea might work out, especially if in the future you further develop the clothing line of goods. For example I can see padded leather coats being required for whalers or seal hunters.

All feathers of all available coloured birds were used, e.g. by the Aztecs to create colourful headdresses
https://pages.vassar.edu/realarchaeology/2017/09/20/why-are-feathers-so-important-in-the-aztec-culture-piecing-together-the-puzzle/#:~:text=The Aztecs used feathers from many brightly colored,birds were worth more for their vibrant colors.

for Federboas/featherboas or for glamour and prestige like even today
https://images6.alphacoders.com/543/543042.jpg

Adding more Yields? [IMPLEMENTED]

Would you like to have these additional Yields?

No, WTP already has too many or at least enough Yields.

Yes, I would like to have more Yields. The more the better.

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