Additional Late Game Buildings

[Stalker0]

There has been some discussion on Discord about adding in some additional late game buildings, so this thread is for that discussion.

After a bit of brainstorming and initial polish, here are some initial proposals:

Existing Building Changes
Airport: Loses +25% Great Work boost, +25% terrain, wonders, natural wonders culture to tourism
Stadium: Loses WLTKD, Happiness bonuses, +25% terrain, wonders, natural wonders culture to tourism

Airport
Gains: "Makes a City Connection with your Capital, if your Capital also has an Airport"

Stadium
+GAP (same as current)
+GAP / Pop (same as current)
+50% to Great Works (up from 25%)
+30 influence to all City States
No prereqs (aka no zoo requirement)

Amusement Park (New Building)
Available at: Electronics
Requires: Zoo
Instant WLTKD
+50% of culture from terrain, wonders, natural wonders-> Tourism
+2 happiness

Rationale / Explanation
So the idea here is to shift the tourism bonuses around a bit. Airports are already a powerhouse building, so this focuses the building more on its core aspects. In return we split the remaining tourism bonuses between the stadium and theme park. This delays some of the big tourism boosts in the late game, helping to curb CV slightly, which some consider too fast in the current meta. One side effect of this change, is that Autocracy loses some CV value (as its tier 3 was often able to provide airports in all cities, often faster than the research itself, which provided a big boost of tourism).

Stadiums then recieve a diplomatic boost, able to help a player struggling with CS to get a short term boost and make general friendships with the CS on the map. This has little impact for players already strong in CS diplomacy, but gives struggling nations a chance to come back into the CS game....at least for a little while.

The new theme park provides one of the last big CV boosts, and provides an instant WLTKD and +2 happiness. The building is meant for a CV focused play, but does have some good general bonuses if happiness and WLTKD are still needed.

At the end of the day this shifts bonuses around, not really creating new ones (aka the total amount of bonuses is the same as before with the exception of the CS influence boost). Many already consider the late game "too fast" and yield inflation too high. This change serves to slow things down a touch by spreading the bonuses out over a longer time and more buildings.

 

[azum4roll]

Where would the 50% culture to tourism conversion from world wonders be?

 

[Milae]

Since you are suggesting changing how lategame tourism works I really think the instant yields of tourism should be removed from all buildings and be replaced with extra tourism per turn. My last few games have ended with me stacking tourism modifiers with other civs and then building stadiums/zoos everywhere to get influential with everyone even though I had very little Tourism per turn. They make the tourism per turn and historic event tourism quite irrelevent and it also requires stuff to be timed well with musicians and stuff so the AIs can't do it properly.

 

[Rekk]

Tourism per turn is relevant because instant tourism scales off of it.

 

[Milae]

Not the yields from the buildings. Maybe they should count as historic events actually instead of flat number.

 

[Stalker0]

Where would the 50% culture to tourism conversion from world wonders be?

the amusement park I just wrote it poorly, it’s all the same sources as before.

 

[Rekk]

Not the yields from the buildings. Maybe they should count as historic events actually instead of flat number.

I'd like it to scale, but if we tie it to historic event code, we'd be giving a bunch more to Arabia.

I'd be fine with giving the buildings tourism per turn as well, specifically because they make historic events stronger.

 

[pineappledan]

Where would the 50% culture to tourism conversion from world wonders be?

I remember that Tourism from World Wonders is linked to either the terrain converter or the GW boost, but I don't remember which. I think the terrain one also includes from world wonders and natural wonders (I don't really get why that's not also just considered "terrain"), but it would go to whatever building that bonus is attached to, since it's not its own thing.

I also wanted to mention the original proposal included giving the Airport a new ability (new code, if possible):
Makes a City Connection with your Capital, if your Capital also has an Airport.
So like a lighthouse, but everywhere, including land. Right now there isn't any way to connect a landlocked city on a different continent to your empire unless you build a road to it from a different, coastal city. Adding a free, automatic connection onto a late building seems like a nice QoL improvement.

 

[Stalker0]

I think the terrain one also includes from world wonders and natural wonders

This is correct. Its +X% culture from terrain, wonders, and natural wonders -> tourism. So in this example, that would be the Amusement Park. I will update the proposal with this note, and the QoL note mentioned.

 

[pineappledan]

I think Amusement Park needs to do 1 more thing. It seems pretty naked with just the happiness, WLTKD, and / terrain converter.

 

[Stalker0]

I think Amusement Park needs to do 1 more thing. It seems pretty naked with just the happiness, WLTKD, and / terrain converter.

It covers a lot of niches right now. If your going CV....your building this building. If you need more happiness....your building this building. And if you just can't get a WLTKD on a city because of a bad resource...your building this building.

That's a pretty versatile list of reasons to build it.

If it needs further enhancement, I would just increase its happiness bonus to +3 or something like that, but I don't think it needs a whole other area of things to do.

 

[beginner_]

Stadiums then recieve a diplomatic boost, able to help a player struggling with CS to get a short term boost and make general friendships with the CS on the map. This has little impact for players already strong in CS diplomacy, but gives struggling nations a chance to come back into the CS game....at least for a little while.

What does +30 influence really do in late game?

Usually you need like >1000 often >3000 to have a chance to become an ally so +30 is essential a drop in the ocean.

 

[Stalker0]

What does +30 influence really do in late game?

Usually you need like >1000 often >3000 to have a chance to become an ally so +30 is essential a drop in the ocean.

the influence is more about friendships. It effectively lets a player obtain friendships with every cs, at least for a time. Good for players who haven’t made friends due to terrain barriers or who have gotten knocked out of CS due to heavy great diplomat play.

beyond that, 5 stadiums is 150 influence in all cs, which is much more cost efficient than sending an ambassador to each cs, assuming there remains a number of them

 

[pineappledan]

An idea for the amusement park:
@InkAxis made both a local and global version of the yields change to all world wonders ability. America’s 3 unique wonders use the global version, maybe the amusement park could use the local version, and give yields for each world wonder in the city?

maybe +3and ? With the existing 1 on all world wonders, that also makes 2 per wonder with the 50% converter

 

[Rekk]

This is acting more and more like a visitor's centre.

 

[pineappledan]

Should this go to a vote?

 

[Closed Sky]

Can we do with something other than amusement park? They are hardly critical infrastructure like any other building is, and VP as a whole was a step for more serious grand-strategy style with more realistic tech, military supply and happiness factors. For example stadiums are part of economically and culturally important music industry while amusement parks strikes me as just lol addition.

For example moving supermarket intead, which is just awful with that modern American 60s icon in Renaissance, and replacing it with something time-consistent like lazaret which were widespread at that time and crucial in containment of epidemics, the most famous perhaps being Venetian one and later Ellis Island. It also aligns perfectly with food as health and higiene resource, that leads to more population, as is implied with hospital, medical lab, and aqueduct already.

I can write the description to the building if people like this idea.

 

[Stalker0]

Can we do with something other than amusement park? They are hardly critical infrastructure like any other building is, and VP as a whole was a step for more serious grand-strategy style with more realistic tech, military supply and happiness factors. For example stadiums are part of economically and culturally important music industry while amusement parks strikes me as just lol addition.

For example moving supermarket intead, which is just awful with that modern American 60s icon in Renaissance, and replacing it with something time-consistent like lazaret which were widespread at that time and crucial in containment of epidemics, the most famous perhaps being Venetian one and later Ellis Island. It also aligns perfectly with food as health and higiene resource, that leads to more population, as is implied with hospital, medical lab, and aqueduct already.

I can write the description to the building if people like this idea.

If people have other late game concepts they should definately bring them to the table. Note though that this is intentionally designed as an additional building, not just a redesign of an existing one.

 

[Stalker0]

An idea for the amusement park:
@InkAxis made both a local and global version of the yields change to all world wonders ability. America’s 3 unique wonders use the global version, maybe the amusement park could use the local version, and give yields for each world wonder in the city?

maybe +3and ? With the existing 1 on all world wonders, that also makes 2 per wonder with the 50% converter

seems to counteract the very purpose of pushing the tourism bonuses back, as now we are just adding on even more tourism (likely to the Capital which is the tourism driver for most civs anyway).

i could see the gold bonus if you really wanted to, it would actually he a good chunk in a wonder filled capital

 

[Closed Sky]

I don't have late game concept. I think replacing grocer with lazaret, which requires only new icon and texts to grocer, is desirable and frees grocer's icon for a new building modern or atomic era building: Supermarket, which you can use instead of amusement park. What changes are to be made in late buildings I don't feel competent to say, but I just the concept along.

I would leave tourism at airports, I like cultural victory being open as an alternative for warmongering and I’m just booking flight tickets to Paris for 19,60 USD both ways, so it’s fitting. I don’t intend to sleep, it would alone be 80 USD more and I think when you have one and a half day in Paris it’s an insult to civilisation to sleep. We can try changing tenet to 5 free airports like research labs and military academies or a double production like with constabularies if it’s too strong.

I would keep 25% terrain tourism bonuses at stadium and airport, why bring them into one building if CV is already too fast. Can we make Supermarket (instead of park) get WLTKD and happiness to be fitting? Andaybe eliminate great work boost altogether, so terrain and wonders would matter slightly more and wider traditions and small progresses would have better chances at CV? Not sure about balance so other must comment.