Advice wanted: learning warmongering on Noble with Julius

[dalamb]

I've decided I need to make a serious attempt to learn how to warmonger; given the various monarch- and emperor-level "challenge" games floating around, I'm hoping a few people will advise a wimp still learning how to play at Noble level. Given my brief experience with GOTM022 I figured trying Julius Caesar first would be easiest.

I used Noble, Pangaea, Cylindrical, Small, Low Sea, Temperate, Ancient, Normal Speed.

Lately I've been using the Advanced Start feature; with this game in particular I wanted to make sure bronze was near the first city. It turns out it was in the fat cross, which made things a lot simpler for me. I bought the initial city, tech:BW, a warrior, tech:hunting for a scout, and a worker. Unfortunately the AI seems to want to build additional cities, which means getting BW this way puts me behind in the expansion race. If I'd been patient maybe I should just have done likewise and researched normally -- but I didn't see an especially good spot for a second city.

I was only able to build 2 cities, the second rather far away but necessary because it's where the iron was (1N of Antium). I don't recall the exact tech sequence, but it was something like wheel, AH, iron, agriculture, pottery, writing, archery. Masonry was in there somewhere, but Indian culture expanded to grab the stone before I finished researching it.

As soon as I hooked up copper I started producing axemen -- mostly city raiders, but a couple of Combat I aiming for Medic I promotions. I think my builder instincts were still too active (or perhaps my fear of combat, or compulsion to wait for the UU), because I just kept building axes until iron hooked up, winding up with 14 before the first Praetorian. In retrospect maybe 6 or 7 should have been plenty to take Bombay.

I'm now ready to attack India. There are 2 stacks of 3 axes each aiming to take out the strategic resources (horses and copper), and a stack of 5 praetorians and 4 axemen poised to attack Bombay. I had a previous Rome game where I neglected to scout and take out copper, losing out on attacking the capital because by the time I got there my 7 Praetorians were facing 4 axemen and a couple of other units.

I expect to keep both Bombay, holy city for hinduism and judaism, plus Delhi (good location); both are reasonably close to Rome.

I'm currently teching for Theology for the Theocracy civic. Maybe Christianity, but I'm not sure whether to take it as a state religion or not -- having the AIs hate me may not make as much difference for warmaking as it does for building, but I still don't want to war with everyone at once. Maybe I can take out Willem (Buddhism) next, since he's next closest, and spread Christianity to the 2 remaining civs.

On the other hand, maybe I need to tech for CoL ASAP because science is down to 30%.

I'm clueless about how to handle diplomacy with de Gaulle and Suryavarman II other than avoid state religion for now and give in to all their requests.

I expect to start the attack this evening (Eastern TZ) if there's enough time left after watching the Dr. Who DVD with the family.

Comments, criticisms, and advice appreciated.
Edit: Attachments deleted.

 

[Handel]

About the religion - just check you religious adviser which shows the percentage of each religion. Usually the buddism and hinduism have the greatests chunks. So if you take the hinduism holy city you may consider switching to hindusm.

 

[slobberinbear]

You picked a great civ to learn warmongering.

The following are some general guidelines. Some or none may apply in a given situation.

1. Winning a war sooner is better than winning it later. Do what it takes to win the war fast. That means either attacking early to catch them unprepared OR bringing overwhelming forces to bear to make sure it's a fast campaign.
2. When you war, go all-out. Keep making units.
3. Attack the capitol, holy city, and high production cities first.
4. Use siege units when available.
5. Make a medic unit to keep your offensive going. This helps you win the war faster.
6. If the war is bogging down and your cities are becoming unhappy due to war weariness, take a peace treaty and reload.
7. You will be counterattacked. Bring defensive units.
8. Try not to lose your promoted units. They are hard to replace. Support them with siege units, counter units, and cannon fodder.

As far as diplomacy goes, it is usually a mistake to try to be everyone's friend. Focus on keeping one or two friends, preferably civs that are in the middle of the pack. Having a warlike friend is very handy. Diplomacy works better when you have a big army.

 

[xanadux]

2 suggestions:

1: Using spies to eliminate cultural defenses is huge. You probably aren't prepared for that for your first battle, but keep it in mind. Construction is no longer necessary to take down that creative capital with walls that has 85% defense.

2: You will need to move your capital later once you have civil service. Rome is too food poor to be your capital long term.

 

[Handel]

Diplomacy works better when you have a big army.

And the catapults are the best diplomats

PS. Too bad Bombay is one tile nearer to Rome then needed.

 

[dalamb]

1. Winning a war sooner is better than winning it later. Do what it takes to win the war fast. That means either attacking early to catch them unprepared OR bringing overwhelming forces to bear to make sure it's a fast campaign.

I think I have the overwhelming force on ths one, but also think I waited too long, since my earlier stack of axes might have been enough.

5. Make a medic unit to keep your offensive going. This helps you win the war faster.

I have a couple of Combat I units I intend to promote that way.

7. You will be counterattacked. Bring defensive units.

Forgot spearmen this time, but the axes should help defend against melee units.

8. Try not to lose your promoted units. They are hard to replace. Support them with siege units, counter units, and cannon fodder.

That's one thing I learned a long while back from other comments in these fora -- attack with wimpier units, finish off the severely wounded with high-promotion ones. Generals lead from the rear, that sort of thing. Speaking of which, anyone have a link to some advice on using Great Generals effectively? In the Warlords fora, maybe?

 

[dalamb]

1: Using spies to eliminate cultural defenses is huge. You probably aren't prepared for that for your first battle, but keep it in mind. Construction is no longer necessary to take down that creative capital with walls that has 85% defense.

Yes, well, I still have to learn about how to spy, too.

You will need to move your capital later once you have civil service. Rome is too food poor to be your capital long term.

Thanks for the comment about food; I think I'd have moved it anyway, just to have it closer to the centre of my initial conquests.

I thought of a couple more things:

1. I neglected to put spearmen in the stacks, so am vulnerable to chariots (or, worse, horse archers).
2. I did read a couple of warmongering articles before I started. I've found some advice for builders learning to become warmongers; it's aimed at higher difficulty levels but has some things for us lower-difficulty players. Also there's buildaholics anonymous.
3. Since I want to keep both cities, should I just sit on the bronze and horses instead of pillaging?

 

[uncarved block]

As a Noble player myself, and someone who likes to build infrastructure perhaps a bit too much, I found warmongering to be less about units than about the economy. Are Praetorians good? Sure, they're a great UU-- but it's the UB and the traits that make the Romans so dominant at warring.

Learn the techs that allow your economy to recover from early expansion: Code of Laws, obviously, but also Currency: a Market in your capitol (or commerce city) may be equal to two or three Courthouses-- and with the Courthouses will be a sign it's about time to start another war . . .

Units cost money, and aren't very helpful if they're obsolete. Think about where beakers and gold come from-- I've never run a full blown SE, but have learned how to use specialists to make up for underdeveloped cities after a war. A good map to practice on, maybe, is Boreal: there's lots of hammers (Forests and Hills) and food (Deer especially!), but not a lot of commerce resources or Flood Plains. Only played it once, but it was informative.

As far as the actual warfare goes, I have only these broad observations. A civ you've declared war on once will spam more units than one you haven't, and will often be working on a SoD if you've taken a major city. If you go to war, aim at crippling the opposition, because otherwise you're just asking for trouble later. Warmonger (Monty, Shaka, etc) AIs build more units, so I either A) strike really early while they're expanding, if possible, or B) wait until I've got a tech lead, which is pretty easy to do on Noble, as all those units drag down their research. Throw some superior defensive units in first, and they'll often (not always) deplete their forces in a counterattack. I tend to settle GGs, rather than build the Medic 3, but can see how that would be a better play on higher levels-- on Noble, you should be able to outproduce most AIs, and the flexibility of the promotions is more useful than quickly healing a stack. Especially since the AI loves building Walls so much-- Accuracy promotions out the gate will save you a lot of time down the line, without an expensive civics change. But this may not be advice that will help you move up a level

 

[slobberinbear]

With Praetorians, about the only other unit you'll need is the garrison units you're going to leave behind to defend your conquests. Archers are great for this. In some ways, playing as Rome can give you bad habits -- you don't learn how to bring a good mix of units, because frankly, you don't need to. Praets are that darned good. Well promoted praetorians can take on city garrison muskets and win. Ponder that one for a moment.

So I wouldn't worry too much about protecting the Praets, because they really have no countering unit. An axeman has a shot at them, that's about it. I suppose you could bring some chariots with you for that.

As far as cannon fodder go -- they have a time and a place. Sometimes to win, you have to lead off with your best troops, and using your wimpy troops will result in no effect. The best kind of cannon fodder does damage and has a withdrawal chance, like siege or cavalry. Using other kinds of cannon fodder (warriors vs. longbows, say) is pretty ineffective, and you end up killing off units you could have used as cheap garrison troops.

A great general medic troop is a good idea. Pop him on a chariot.

 

[dalamb]

Learn the techs that allow your economy to recover from early expansion: Code of Laws, obviously, but also Currency: a Market in your capitol (or commerce city) may be equal to two or three Courthouses-- and with the Courthouses will be a sign it's about time to start another war . . .

I knew the general principle, but not the specifics, about how you have to keep your economy going (unless you're getting so much cash from razing that you can run decent science at big cash minuses). I saw: "Forum, a special form of Market" and went, "ahh, that's too far in the future" but really it isn't: currency is on the way to CoL by the route I'd probably take. I currently expect to be able to handle the Indians, but am not sure whether to immediately go after the Dutch, or wait a while until I get Courthouses (and Fora).

I've never run a full blown SE, but have learned how to use specialists to make up for underdeveloped cities after a war. A good map to practice on, maybe, is Boreal: there's lots of hammers (Forests and Hills) and food (Deer especially!), but not a lot of commerce resources or Flood Plains.

More to learn! I sort of understand both SE and CE but have never really focused on learning either.

But this may not be advice that will help you move up a level

I think I'll learn to cope with Noble first!

 

[dalamb]

With Praetorians, about the only other unit you'll need is the garrison units you're going to leave behind to defend your conquests. Archers are great for this.

During the day I was thinking, better turn one of those cities to producing archers instead of Praets.

In some ways, playing as Rome can give you bad habits -- you don't learn how to bring a good mix of units, because frankly, you don't need to.

I don't plan on sticking with them; next warmonger game will be somebody else -- not sure who, yet.

A great general medic troop is a good idea. Pop him on a chariot.

Ooh, didn't think about the chariot option. Good suggestion!

 

[dalamb]

I was reading some other warmonger threads and learned about demanding techs etc from your opponent in return for a 10-turn peace. In my specific situation does that make sense (India has only 2 cities, both of which I want to keep)?

 

[Kietharr]

Basic instructions for noble level warmongering:

1. Beeline Bronzeworking, the sooner you get it the better. Build Worker>Warrior>Scout/Warrior>Settler most of the time. By the time you finish the worker, bronze working should be near completion. Note that depending on your civ and terrain the build order will vary a bit, but you generally want a couple of warriors and a worker before getting a settler. Research the Wheel after Bronzeworking if you do not already have it, you need it for roads.

2. Use your settler and found a second city near the closest source of Bronze. If there is no Bronze and you are not a civ with a chariot UU, skip down to step 4. If the closest source of bronze is in terrible land like desert/desert hills/plains without possibility of irrigation you might as well save yourself several turns and settle on top of it. Connect bronze to capital.

3. Build lots of axemen. 6 is usually enough, rush your closest neighbor. Be wary of protective civs. Head straight for the capital and take it. Take as much of the rest of his land as you can, wipe him out before he turtles up if possible.

4. Build cotteges and economic improvements in your new lands, research Code of Laws at some point and whip courthouses everywhere. If you are Zulu, whip ikhandas everywhere, they are awesome. Research Ironworking too, if you did not have copper for axes it is essential to hook iron up at this time and use a stack of catapults, swordsmen, axemen and spearmen to kill your nearest rival.

5. If you did have copper, now is the time to take out another civ, use macemen and catapaults with crossbowmen as stack defenders.

6. improve economy of newly conquered territory, rinse and repeat for every civilization on your continent using the latest in weapons technology because of the tech lead you gain by grabbing up all of that land.

As far as Diplomacy goes, use your best judgement. Don't pander though, you'll be killing everyone anyways, you should probably try to meet the other continent(s) ASAP because if you're playing right everyone on your continent will hate you by the time optics come about, but it won't matter because you'll be dominating them in score.

 

[Fjortisbarn]

Play as the Incas in your next game. It's not Huayna Capac's traits that makes him good for really early warmongering (Fin/Ind), but his UU, Quecha, which is a Warrior which starts with combat one and have 100 % against archers. With two-three Quechas, you can attack an opponent in before 3000BC, take him out, make some more Quechas and repeat, it works until your opponents get bronze working (Axeman vs Quecha = Dead Quecha)

I played on Noble, and a similar map like you, but on standard size, and I was able to take out all but 2 civs with just Quechas.

 

[dalamb]

Curiously, I did try the Inca a while back in an attempt to learn about the Quechua rush. I got about as far as the advisors thought I could take the rush (opponents had bronze by then, and I had to consolidate my ill-gotten gains), then never got around to continuing. Maybe I'll follow your advice by going back and finishing that one -- though it's vanilla rather than BtS, and I'm kinda hooked on the new version now.

I held off on the attack last night because I was a bit too groggy to run a battle competently, so I'm off to pull the trigger in a few minutes...

 

[dalamb]

I thought to take a look at relations and found that Asoka was pleased with me:
So I wondered, maybe I should attack the Dutch first? I didn't know what tradeoffs to consider here. On the one hand, I'll have to conquer India eventually, and they're the nearest and easiest target. I hadn't planned on researching Alphabet for tech trading, so how important is it to keep a friendly around in the current situation?

I decided to take India in this particular game, believing it would normally be a serious mistake with another less friendly target close by. One little factor to consider is that my current iron supply at Antium seems kinda vulnerable, and there's a closer one in Indian territory

Bombay was easy to take -- twice. I captured it, then marched everybody off to the next city leaving only one poor injured Praetorian to face the adjacent axeman (in a forest) that I'd once noticed but quickly forgotten.

Not much to be learned there except "avoid stupidity" -- a particularly blatant case of ignoring "defend against the counterattacks." Maybe the embarrassment will help me remember in future.

One minor thing that puzzled me is that my bronze-denial squad ran into a chariot guarding a settler that popped out of Delhi just as we got to the bronze.

For some reason the combat odds disappeared when I tried to capture the screen shot -- is there some trick to getting the odds to appear in a picture? At 69% they seemed reasonable especially since I had brought 3 axes -- if the chariot got lucky I might have been forced to pillage the bronze, but I decided I'd rather not have a chariot hanging around. The thing is, why did the AI do this in the first place? A new settler heading for a bad place to settle, with nasty Romans hanging around?

By now (so soon?) I'm suffering from serious war weariness -- -4 gold per turn at 0% on the slider, 1 war-weary citizen in Rome.

My attack stack just razed Vijayanaraga and needs to recover.

Once again the picture didn't capture mouse-over data (status of the stack of attackers); I thought I'd seen people post these things, so is there some trick to it?

So, my main question is: is this time for a short peace treaty? One concern is my bronze denial squad -- they'll get ejected from Indian territory, won't they? If they get to go the desert to the east, they can get back quickly when hostilities resume, but if they get thrown the other direction it'll be that much longer before they can get at the bronze again. Meanwhile Asoka has 10+ rounds to grind out more axemen.