Affinities are (still) a nonsensical wash.

[SupremacyKing2]

Why are Affinities so closely tied to the tech web?

From a game mechanics point of view, it makes things easy. Each tech gives points. Player gets techs, player gets points. Simple and straightforward to code. From a lore perspective, I think it makes sense too. If the society is researching cybernetics, it makes sense that it is interested in supremacy so the affinity points are a reflection of that. In some ways, I think the system is analogous to how in civ5, techs reveal resources. In practice, it should probably be the other way around: you discover some iron which causes your civ to research ironworking. But making techs unlock resources is a good abstraction that "works" for the purposes of a game. Similarly, in practice, the player should probably pick affinity points first which then unlock techs. But the way it works now, is a decent abstraction.

The whole Affinity system should really be much more closely tied to quest choices and actual gameplay.

Well, in Rising Tide, there are a lot more affinity quests. In my games, I get a good chunk of my affinity levels from quests.

And it is possible to have a unique playstyle with each affinity. For example, a supremacy player can spam magrails for fast transportation, spam nodes for extra energy and healing buff to units, and build neurolabs for science. A purity player can spam domes and farms and go for the tech "vertical farming" to boost food and get stronger cities. It is just that most players don't do this because it is not the optimal strategy for a quick win.

Instead, the devs bizarrely continue emphasizing tech web choices and placing way, way, way too much importance on units and not nearly enough on changing other aspects of the game, like improvements or growth or science output.

Well, each affinity does have "their" tile improvement (node for supremacy, dome for purity, biowell for harmony). Plus, each affinity does have their own unique buildings. Purity has some great culture buildings. Supremacy has some great science buildings. So I do think affinities are more than just units in the game.

Currently, Affinities just aren't distinct enough. There's no sense of character or depth to them.

They're paint jobs.

I disagree. Affinities have unique perks, unique units, unique buildings that favor certain yields, certain techs they favor, unique strategic resources, etc... They are more than just "paint jobs". You seem to want the game to force you to adopt a unique gameplay to help you understand what each affinity is about. The game does not do that so you conclude that the affinities are not distinct enough. I tend to role play more and I pay attention to the unique stuff the affinities give me, so for me, the affinities are much more vivid and interesting.

 

[Ryika]

And it is possible to have a unique playstyle with each affinity. For example, a supremacy player can spam magrails for fast transportation, spam nodes for extra energy and healing buff to units, and build neurolabs for science.

A purity player can spam domes and farms and go for the tech "vertical farming" to boost food and get stronger cities. It is just that most players don't do this because it is not the optimal strategy for a quick win.

Isn't that a self-defeating argument though?

If players don't do this because it's not optimal, why would spamming nodes for example be tied to Supremacy? I can spam nodes as Harmony or Purity as well. It's just a step deeper on the efficiency ladder.

 

[Westwall]

The game does not do that so you conclude that the affinities are not distinct enough.

Because they're not. And you roleplaying doesn't change that. You roleplaying doesn't change the optimal strategy. Why is the optimal strategy still to exterminate the aliens no matter what affinity path you follow? Why is the optimal strategy still to forego biowells and nodes?

They put some effort into making units look different, gave you a few gameplay perks and that's it. They decided that was enough and called it a day, even though it looks ridiculous to have crop farms in a Supremacy faction or paddocks in a Harmony faction.

The tone is inconsistent throughout. Just as you'll go through most games without ever interacting as much with other factions as in past Civ games because the game discourages large empires to the point of punishing you if you try to go wide.

Victories also don't encourage any interaction with other factions the way the Cultural Victory or Diplomatic Victory did in BNW. It's like BE/BERT just wants you to play in a bubble with only the occasional trade deal or defensive war waged because there's simply no reason to expand and attack unless you're going for a Domination victory.

It's an insult to players. Even SMAC provided a more Harmony-like way of interacting with the native wildlife by making it possible to capture aliens when you attack them, unlike BERT where you can only do it through a single unit type unless you get that one particular marvel quest that allows for it.

It's all so disjointed and incomplete. Seriously, how can anyone be satisfied with this? Have people just come to expect so little that even this is considered "good enough"?

 

[sugerdady87]

Because they're not. And you roleplaying doesn't change that. You roleplaying doesn't change the optimal strategy. Why is the optimal strategy still to exterminate the aliens no matter what affinity path you follow? Why is the optimal strategy still to forego biowells and nodes?

They put some effort into making units look different, gave you a few gameplay perks and that's it. They decided that was enough and called it a day, even though it looks ridiculous to have crop farms in a Supremacy faction or paddocks in a Harmony faction.

The tone is inconsistent throughout. Just as you'll go through most games without ever interacting as much with other factions as in past Civ games because the game discourages large empires to the point of punishing you if you try to go wide.

Victories also don't encourage any interaction with other factions the way the Cultural Victory or Diplomatic Victory did in BNW. It's like BE/BERT just wants you to play in a bubble with only the occasional trade deal or defensive war waged because there's simply no reason to expand and attack unless you're going for a Domination victory.

It's an insult to players. Even SMAC provided a more Harmony-like way of interacting with the native wildlife by making it possible to capture aliens when you attack them, unlike BERT where you can only do it through a single unit type unless you get that one particular marvel quest that allows for it.

It's all so disjointed and incomplete. Seriously, how can anyone be satisfied with this? Have people just come to expect so little that even this is considered "good enough"?

I pretty much agree with everything you've said so far. I actually thought about this in the shower last night . Every victory condition, with the exception of domination, is just a re-skinned, re-package version of each other and requires no interaction with other civs at all. It's pretty much why I only go for domination wins now.

 

[SupremacyKing2]

If players don't do this because it's not optimal, why would spamming nodes for example be tied to Supremacy? I can spam nodes as Harmony or Purity as well. It's just a step deeper on the efficiency ladder.

Nodes are tied to supremacy because A) they are on a tech that gives supremacy points and B) supremacy players get a extra bonus to nodes. So it makes sense for supremacy players to build them.

 

[Ryika]

Nodes are tied to supremacy because A) they are on a tech that gives supremacy points and B) supremacy players get a extra bonus to nodes. So it makes sense for supremacy players to build them.

Only if you care about efficiency. But if you care about efficiency you don't build nodes but instead build farms. ^^

 

[SupremacyKing2]

Because they're not. And you roleplaying doesn't change that. You roleplaying doesn't change the optimal strategy. Why is the optimal strategy still to exterminate the aliens no matter what affinity path you follow? Why is the optimal strategy still to forego biowells and nodes?

I guess we disagree on what the optimal strategy is. First, exterminating aliens is not always the optimal strategy. Second, why shouldn't all the affinities be able to exterminate the aliens? They are a hostile life that is standing in the way of human development. Why can't the game give each affinity perks but let players choose their own strategies? For example, harmony gets the leash ability but why should the player be forced to befriend the aliens?

You seem to think that the game should have forced each affinity into a unique gameplay strategy. For example, harmony players should be forced to leash aliens and never kill them, and should be forced to only build biowells and nothing else.

Just as you'll go through most games without ever interacting as much with other factions as in past Civ games because the game discourages large empires to the point of punishing you if you try to go wide.

What?! Health is super easy to get in RT, much more so than happiness in civ5, so wide empires are much wasier in RT than civ5. In BE:RT, I spam cities all the time whereas in civ5, I struggle to have an empire of more than 4-5 cities.

It's all so disjointed and incomplete. Seriously, how can anyone be satisfied with this? Have people just come to expect so little that even this is considered "good enough"?

Well, different people will have different expectations. Nothing wrong with that. It is a bit presumptuous of you to think that players must share your expectations and if they do enjoy the game that there is something wrong with them.

 

[nimling]

One of the things I like is that affinities aren't force-fed a limiting play style, despite the efforts of some to browbeat others into playing the game a particular way (which isn't even all that "optimum" compared to the alternatives). The one thing I agree with is that every affinity is basically forced to fight the native life, although part of that is due to 1UPT and the dronejam it creates, and reliance on trade routes that can't be disrupted. Also, there are a lot of counter-sensical things like internal trade routes that break the game, that RT should have fixed at the core of the problem instead of patching over with more weird stuff.

re: improvements - I would find nodes useful in MP where unit healing is a really strong perk. Otherwise they're just a slightly more expensive Generator that doesn't get generator bonuses. In the base game Generator bonuses were not tied to Supremacy iirc, and nodes had a bonus attached to a late Supremacy tech that most players would go for.

I have had a few games where Dome HP saved a city from being taken, so there's that. In MP it probably won't matter given the size of a useful army. The extra culture is underrated, as unlike tech there is no easy way to spam for culture.

 

[Galgus]

Every, EVERY time I see you post nimling, you somehow bring up 1UPT.

No matter how irrelevant it is to the discussion at hand.
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Moving beyond that, I want Affinities to each have a distinct playstyle.

If every affinity can do everything equally well, what difference is there between them?

Asymmetry is needed to make them more interesting, and six unique playstyles would be an improvement over the status quo.
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I completely agree that internal trade routes are nonsensical, both in their power and how their yields are calculated.

 

[sugerdady87]

One of the things I like is that affinities aren't force-fed a limiting play style, despite the efforts of some to browbeat others into playing the game a particular way (which isn't even all that "optimum" compared to the alternatives). The one thing I agree with is that every affinity is basically forced to fight the native life, although part of that is due to 1UPT and the dronejam it creates, and reliance on trade routes that can't be disrupted. Also, there are a lot of counter-sensical things like internal trade routes that break the game, that RT should have fixed at the core of the problem instead of patching over with more weird stuff.

re: improvements - I would find nodes useful in MP where unit healing is a really strong perk. Otherwise they're just a slightly more expensive Generator that doesn't get generator bonuses. In the base game Generator bonuses were not tied to Supremacy iirc, and nodes had a bonus attached to a late Supremacy tech that most players would go for.

I have had a few games where Dome HP saved a city from being taken, so there's that. In MP it probably won't matter given the size of a useful army. The extra culture is underrated, as unlike tech there is no easy way to spam for culture.

What use is there for extra culture? After the +3 expeditions and +30 science for explorers, I don't really need any other virtue.

 

[Gorbles]

Because they're not. And you roleplaying doesn't change that. You roleplaying doesn't change the optimal strategy. Why is the optimal strategy still to exterminate the aliens no matter what affinity path you follow? Why is the optimal strategy still to forego biowells and nodes?

They put some effort into making units look different, gave you a few gameplay perks and that's it. They decided that was enough and called it a day, even though it looks ridiculous to have crop farms in a Supremacy faction or paddocks in a Harmony faction.

The tone is inconsistent throughout. Just as you'll go through most games without ever interacting as much with other factions as in past Civ games because the game discourages large empires to the point of punishing you if you try to go wide.

Victories also don't encourage any interaction with other factions the way the Cultural Victory or Diplomatic Victory did in BNW. It's like BE/BERT just wants you to play in a bubble with only the occasional trade deal or defensive war waged because there's simply no reason to expand and attack unless you're going for a Domination victory.

It's an insult to players. Even SMAC provided a more Harmony-like way of interacting with the native wildlife by making it possible to capture aliens when you attack them, unlike BERT where you can only do it through a single unit type unless you get that one particular marvel quest that allows for it.

It's all so disjointed and incomplete. Seriously, how can anyone be satisfied with this? Have people just come to expect so little that even this is considered "good enough"?

Every time you base an argument on "tone", you're using your own personal head-canon and / or your own form of roleplaying. Why criticise others for doing the same?

I'd say more, but you seem to not reply much. No point.

 

[Azedenkae]

Why are Affinities so closely tied to the tech web?

How does this reflect your actual play style at all? How does it immerse you in the tenets of one path or the other?

For example, why don't my actions towards the native life (kill or let live) have any bearing whatsoever as to whether I gain Purity or Harmony points? I feel like Harmony players ought to have a way to acquire Alien artifacts without pillaging alien nests.

The whole Affinity system should really be much more closely tied to quest choices and actual gameplay. Likewise, if you go hybrid, that should also be reflected in how you play.

Instead, the devs bizarrely continue emphasizing tech web choices and placing way, way, way too much importance on units and not nearly enough on changing other aspects of the game, like improvements or growth or science output.

I mean shouldn't going Supremacy maybe put me in a better position to maximize my beakers and energy production, while making me relatively weaker when it comes to culture and growth, while Purity has the opposite problem and Harmony really excels at growth/food and maintaining health?

I feel like I should see more sprawling hive-like cities with Harmony factions, that are maybe even able to get the most out of organic resources like tubers and chitin without the use of improvements, while Supremacy might have access to better mineral improvements and so on.

There should also be a more tangible sense of fellowship and cooperation between factions sharing the same Affinity, to show how planetary divisions are being drawn along ideological lines with the future of human evolution at stake.

Currently, Affinities just aren't distinct enough. There's no sense of character or depth to them.

They're paint jobs.

I totally agree with you. After playing a few games, I just feel that there's no immersion. Why am I researching all these stuff just to be Supremacy? How is it that I am randomly going in these different directions? Why could I even gain points in all three? I can understand hybrids of two affinities, but three? How can I go pure Harmony when all my cities are surrounded by Terrascapes? I mean, it is called 'Terra'scapes for a reason.

And yeah, what you said as well. How does one go down the Harmony path when one kills off the wildlife like mosquitoes? Or vice versa. I do think that some techs can be tied to certain affinities (like the one that gives Terrascapes for example), but otherwise, there should be a different mechanic. What mechanic? I don't know. Just right now, I don't feel the immersion. And yes, we can 'just roleplay'. But usually a good game would make the roleplaying a lot more part of the game, and something that the game have a part in determining.

 

[Gorbles]

Immersion is a useless phrase when designing a game for people with different backgrounds, experiences and tolerances of science fiction. Everyone's ideas for immersion is different, and everyone has different breaking points when it comes to suspension of disbelief.

Terrascapes are called Terrascapes because they're made to look like Earth (source: Civilopaedia, and / or one of the related Quests). That doesn't meant they're solely belonging to Purity. They could be, sure, they could be designed that way. But they don't have to be to be localised ecosystems that mirror ancient Terra. All they have to be are improvements that allow people to be reminded of Earth. Earth-view, literally.

Plenty of people have made arguments about Harmony killing Aliens, people don't seem to read them so me repeating them will make no difference.

Affinities are ideologies. Contrary to modern political mudslinging, it is possible to have viewpoints that span ideological spectrums. You don't have to be wholly Purity (Puritanical? ), nor Harmonic, nor Supremacistic. You can even cultivate a society that blends all three, at the cost of no specific benefits of one (or even two) major Affinities.

You research things to win, and currently Affinity points are directly tied to most of the Victories. That's why you research Supremacy, primarily as a gameplay concern (i.e. to win). Theme and therefore immersion is a secondary concern, but there are plenty of arguments to be made there, as I've just demonstrated.

You don't have to agree - everyone is different. But just because you are different, doesn't make the source material in of itself incorrect.

 

[sugerdady87]

Immersion is a useless phrase when designing a game for people with different backgrounds, experiences and tolerances of science fiction. Everyone's ideas for immersion is different, and everyone has different breaking points when it comes to suspension of disbelief.

I fully disagree with this sentiment. Immersion is why my friends and I even play the Civ series. There are a lot of other games with better mechanics than Civ. I loved Civ5, for example, because of the historical aspects to it. By no means would I ever support a game where they're trying to carter to or attract as many people from difference interest and areas to it. That just doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Gorbles]

Your idea of what you consider immersion is why you play (historical) Civilisation. That doesn't disprove or even come close to disagreeing with what I said.

A game can be immersive for someone, and not for someone else.

 

[Galgus]

@Gorb

Uh, no, the Terrascape is plainly an Earth environment, and one could only argue otherwise with mental backflips.
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Harmonists may need to defend themselves, yes, but fundamentally the affinity is about adapting to and preserving the planet.

It makes no sense what-so-ever for a Harmony colony to eradicate the Aliens: it would be like a Supremacy colony banning cybernetics and mind uploading.

The game would benefit from mechanics reinforcing such themes, making sensible roleplay choices actually optimal.
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Affinities do have spectrums, but they also have central themes and tenants that define them.

Seeing as they are all different visions of the future, it really makes no sense to have all three.
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Immersion is essential to good game design, and while preferences are subjective they can still be judged as making or or less sense.

I could pretend that my Purity / Supremacy colony hates drones or that my Purity colony actually hates Old Earth history, but neither of those views would make any sense.

Immersion has always been key to Civilization games: I sure as heck don't get a strategic thrill from the lukewarm difficulty the AI offers.

 

[Azedenkae]

Yah, what Galgus said. Basically.

 

[SupremacyKing2]

Only if you care about efficiency. But if you care about efficiency you don't build nodes but instead build farms. ^^

It boils down to whether or not you care about efficiency. The fact is that the game does add a lot of uniqueness to each affinity (like nodes for supremacy). Some players just choose to ignore it because it does not help them win faster.

 

[Ryika]

Well... no, I don't think it does. If you ignore efficiency, then there is no uniqueness either. Without valuing efficiency I can just use Biowells for Supremacy and nothing will stop me from doing so. Add some Terrascapes because I like how they look and there you go - my Supremacy-Based Empire built around Biowells and Terrascapes.

The ONLY group that has inherent affinity-uniqueness in this system is the group that cares just enough about efficiency to value the synergy in getting Supremacy Improvements from Supremacy Technologies, but not enough to value farms over other improvements.

 

[nimling]

The improvements should be judged on how they would perform if the other players were competent, not judged based on what beats the bad AI on Apollo.