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Affinity Traits

Discussion in 'CivBE - Ideas and Suggestions' started by DefiantMars, Aug 5, 2015.

  1. Galgus

    Galgus Emperor

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    Alternatively, Mobile could give a boost from city connections.

    It could fit wide Harmony builds well.
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    I'm probably biased on city defense bonuses since I use a mod of my own design which both weakens city attack and practically removes the damage melee units take attacking them.

    I prefer cities to be things to be defended which grant some advantages, not the looming fortresses they can seem to be early game.
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    Nationalistic continues to be our greatest disagreement.

    Perhaps instead of directly enhancing Sponsor bonuses it could simply provide a different bonus for different sponsors, themed on their playstyle.

    I might try to brainstorm a list that feels balanced.
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    A city specific, non-stacking 15% Science boost from Wonders feels tame enough in my opinion.
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    I worry that the new Diplomatic Capital from Specialists bonus may be too strong, though I don't know what to compare values to.

    Perhaps it could use the things it effects style scaling, with +1 Diplomatic Capital from Trader / Scientist and Engineer / all Specialists.

    It just seems like a resource that tends to have lower yield numbers, though I could be wrong.
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    The Cybernetic specialist bonus is scarily powerful, but probably fine with the high power level balance target.

    I think it needs to lose the -Unhealth though, the combination of the two bonuses is waaaay too much for one trait in my opinion.
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    I like the idea of investing in Diplomatic Capital - its uses seem varied enough that it won't hit the "Culture for Culture" problem of the Knowledge tree where investments don't pay off in time.
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    Production to Food conversion could work somewhat as a cultural trait in an increasing move from natural bodies being a cultural movement.

    An Energy to Production conversion might also work somewhere to symbolize advanced robotics requiring power to function.
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    There is currently an incomplete sentence in Developmental and at the bottom of the OP.
     
  2. DefiantMars

    DefiantMars King

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    Harmony

    Spoiler :
    Emphasizing connectivity and maybe a migratory component of society. I think that could work.


    Purity

    Spoiler :
    I think I like the idea of City HP instead of Strength. In my head it makes more sense.

    I think that Nationalistic is easily an entire concept unto itself.


    Supremacy

    Spoiler :
    That might seem tame, but stacking can easily get out of hand.

    I think that could work. It seems like diplomatic capital is accrued though numerous small sources with the exception of deals that pay heavily (25 DC/T).

    I kind of left everything in very incomplete transitional states. The idea of reducing Unhealth I feel matches the theme very well and I want to keep the component. But with the current specialist focus, I have to cut it down. Maybe a flat 10% reduction would be acceptable?

    I agree, I just think there needs to be a Cultural component to it and I'm not sure where to place it yet. Maybe +1 Culture on Generators?

    I feel that the Energy to Production might suit an Agreement if I'm unable to find somewhere else to put it.


    I left them floating there. I stopped working on it mid way through and just hit save.
     
  3. Galgus

    Galgus Emperor

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    That is why the Wonder science bonus would be non-stacking.
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    The health still feels like too much alongside the science specialist.
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    I'm not sure that there needs to be a cultural component - I view the category more as how day to day life changes and what is considered normal.

    As an agreement it would be less satisfying since a player couldn't plan to build around it.
     
  4. DefiantMars

    DefiantMars King

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    I think I'll have to crunch some numbers. Wonder costs and tech costs. The values are different for marathon right?

    This one is tough because I feel the health is very fitting. Is there any foreseeable middle ground?

    I agree that's the goal of the category. I'm mainly trying to avoid somebody asking why an option in Culture doesn't give culture. I'm trying to find the middle ground where the concepts are conveyed mechanically. Which is the ideal.

    I understand and you're probably right. Maybe if put the energy to production for Utilitarian and replace Autonomous with Utilitarians's yields bonus?
     
  5. Galgus

    Galgus Emperor

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    This could be making things intensely overcomplicated, but I like the idea of Purity and Harmony each having a trait that changes.

    Purity's Nationalistic trait would provide a different, custom balanced bonus based on initial sponsor choice to emphasize the sponsor's default strengths.

    Harmony's Inspired(?) trait would provide a different, custom balanced bonus based on the planet's biome to reflect unique adaptations and inspirations from it.

    Supremacy would not get a changing trait to reflect their desire the transcend traditional humanity and become environmentally agnostic.
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    Higher science costs and higher one-time bonus numbers are how Marathon works.

    Per turn bonuses don't change.
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    Perhaps change the scaling to +1 Science / +2 Science / +.5 Health per specialist?
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    Maybe swap out Developmental and Utilitarian?

    The Culture dichotomy would be constantly looking for future uses and marvels vs focusing research on maximizing the efficiency of what currently exists.

    The Industry dichotomy would be developing expansive infrastructure vs making cities self-sustaining.
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    Austere could potentially be changed to convert some of a city's Energy into Production on a scale and Developmental could convert some Production into Food.

    That could make a nice combo for Energy or Production focused Supremacy players.

    Though alternatively Production to Food could also fit Cybernetic, but that would override the specialist bonus.

    Some tricky decisions.
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    This should probably make a return to Reddit if we can get to a polished version.
     
  6. DefiantMars

    DefiantMars King

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    So percent bonuses would be more effective on a longer game time? So a scaling non stacking bonus for having a wonder and a bonus to constructing wonders.

    I think that would confuse people at first, but it would make sense with some time and thought. 0.5 Health would reduce the Health cost of a citizen from 0.75 to 0.25. With some virtues, traits, and deals combined, its a pretty potent combination. I think that could fly.

    I think the current pairing may be causing some issues. Swapping seems like a really good idea and offers a new perspective. I think the flip makes the dichotomies more engaging than what is in the current version.

    I like the idea that this creates a funnel. Where Energy eventually becomes Food if you pick the specific bonuses. I'm going to play with the new groupings with these changes in mind and see if I can come up with something for Utilitarian.

    It could, but I like the new idea of Cybernetic. Its powerful, requires investment, and even nods to Alpha Centauri.

    That was the intent :) A reddit version will come eventually, provided we can ever come to a resolution on Purity Culture and Industry! :D

    I have an idea for that though. Let me think it out and I'll get back to you on that.

    I'm still stumped on what civilian bonus to include with the Networked trait...
     
  7. Galgus

    Galgus Emperor

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    I'll take the lack of response to a sponor and a biome dependent bonus to be current indifferance, and try to flesh both out.
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    Percent bonuses aren't really stronger in Marathon since they benefit equally from extra turns as flat per-turn bonuses - the numbers that must be generated are simply higher.
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    The +.5 Health could be an overshot, but it would be nice for a specialist focus.

    Coming in late would also help keep it from making it easy to mitigate health early on.
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    I like the idea that Supremacy could focus on Energy to convert to some Production and a bit of Food or focus on Production for a better conversion to Food without the energy.
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    Perhaps Networked could a small Science boost to cities with a Satellite, like the Lasercom or Deep Space Telescope satellites?
     
  8. Galgus

    Galgus Emperor

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    The two massively complicated traits are complete!

    Hoping Harmony biome bonuses work as a bribe.
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    Purity Culture

    "The colony takes great pride in its heritage and origins from Earth. This fuels a patriotic fervor and sense of shared values among your people."

    Nationalistic

    Bonuses vary depending on Sponsor.

    Al Falah - +2 / +3 / +4 Production in all cities.

    ARC - +1 / +2 / +3 Covert Agents. Covert Agents rank up 15 / 25 / 35% faster.

    Pan-Asian Cooperative - +10 / +20 / +30% Production and Diplomatic Capital in cities with a Wonder.

    North Sea Alliance - +2 Production / +2 Food / +2 Culture from aquatic cities.

    Franco-Iberia - +1 of all yields in the Capital for every 4 / 3 / 2 Virtues adopted.

    Slavic Federation - All active Orbital Units produce +2 / 3 / 5 Science. (Identical to contract.)

    People's African Union - +2 / +3 / +4 Food in all cities when healthy.

    Kavithan Protectorate - +1 / +2 / +3 Health and Culture from cities.

    INTEGR - +3 / 6 / 10 Diplomatic Capital from your Capital.
    (Identical to contract.)

    Polystralia - +10% / +20% / +30% effectiveness of Trade Routes from your Capital.

    Brasilia - Gain Culture equal to 5X / 10X / 15X enemy combat strength when destroying an enemy unit.
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    Harmony Culture

    "Your colonies are greatly intrigued by the mysteries of the planet and its native life. They seek to understand and adapt to live alongside both."

    Bonuses vary depending on Biome.

    Lush - +20% / +30% / +40% Population Growth in all cities when healthy.

    Fungal - +1 Culture from unimproved tiles / tiles that provide Culture / all tiles when covered by Miasma. (Unsure on this one.)

    Arid - +1 / +2 / +3 Food on tiles with access to Fresh Water.

    Primordial - Gain Culture equal to 5X / 10X / 15X enemy combat strength when destroying an enemy unit.

    Tundra - May construct all improvements on Snow. +2 Food / +2 Production / +2 Culture from Snow tiles.
     
  9. DefiantMars

    DefiantMars King

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    Spoiler :


    That is impressive. I'm going to steer away from these ideas not because I don't like them, but because I feel they go beyond the scope and are a step above the complexity of the Traits system.

    Just seeing these two lists makes me think there could be another system that ties a Sponsor and an Affinity together.
     
  10. Galgus

    Galgus Emperor

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    That's an interesting idea, a potential unique bonus for each Sponsor / Affinity combination to outline how each sponsor in particular would react to an affinity.

    Though short of making six bonuses per sponsor I'm not sure how to do hybrid affinities, and that may be too many bonuses to keep things distinct with.

    (Perhaps they get half and half of each primary affinity if they go hybrid?)

    The mix and match system that we've been assuming for traits wouldn't work as well for it.
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    Gaah, the Harmomy biome train of thought is drawing me back into the unique effect Biome design mood and old what-could-have-beens.

    Before I completely go off on that tangent though, I like the idea of Harmony having some biome-dependent mechanical differences.

    I flirted with the idea of also giving Supremacy an adaptive trait based on their dominant virtue, but you seem to want to keep things a bit more sane.
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    I'm back to wanting lava rivers (and normal rivers) on Primordial biomes.

    Since it's been four months since I posted the old Biome Overhaul thread on reddit, I may end up trying for an updated one.

    Still not sure on what should be unique on Fungal besides the miasma and general creepiness.

    Regrowing forests and science for cutting them down, which angers the locals?
     
  11. DefiantMars

    DefiantMars King

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  12. Galgus

    Galgus Emperor

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    The flat values have more turns to work also, it's all about proportions.

    It's why I get nervous whenever I see a mod with a one-time bonus - I'm always worried it won't scale with Marathon.
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    I agree on Affinity Trait scaling, and the +.5 per specialist is probably fine.
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    My ideal is to give affinities specialties without shoe-horning everything they do.
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    They would probably need to stack, which would probably get iffy.

    Perhaps instead Satellites over Stations could improve their trade route yields?
     
  13. DefiantMars

    DefiantMars King

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    My mind is officially not processing this information. I understand over the long term the flat yields are better. This reminds me of the "flat penetration vs. percent penetration" discussions from the MOBA games that I play(ed).

    Cool, I'm glad to get that out of the way.

    One of the reasons I was inspired to start this concept. This system has the added flexibility of dropping a trait and replacing it with its other option, which I like. The fact that it cost DC means that you can't flip back and forth whenever you feel like it.

    Maybe, have you seen the new Station Sentinel Satellite? It appears to have this bonus, increases their defense, and stops the Station from vanishing... I don't know, but I think we're getting closer.
     
  14. Galgus

    Galgus Emperor

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    I like the new changes to the system, and aside some missing spots it seems almost ready.

    Before talking about specific traits though, I think there should be more gating in terms of upgrading traits, so that having level 6 in an Affinity isn't sufficient to fully build Traits around it.

    Affintiy level 6 would unlock level one traits, 9 or 10 would unlock level two, and 12 or 14 would unlock level three.

    That way players would really need to commit to an affinity to unlock the full potential of its traits.

    I imagine Hybrids would fill out more slots with a level one trait and upgrade more gradually.
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    Predatory still needs a non-combat bonus to sync up with the other Military traits.

    Would a simple Science and Culture bonus on Alien Nests work?

    It would work well with keeping Aliens nearby to leash into an army, and it fits decently thematically.

    Generally the other military non-combat bonuses seem a bit weak to me relative to the competition, but I think that is a difference of design opinions.
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    Though I still think my complicated Nationalistic Purity Culture trait is better, Loyal works fairly well.

    Would a slight 15 / 20 / 25% scaling on the health bonus work well?

    The trade-off is currently health and culture with development vs a hardcore culture focus.
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    Perhaps Loyal's contract could be called Political Networking?

    Unsure on this.
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    I still worry that Zealous may be too narrow only applying to Aliens killed, since they tend to get exterminated later on in the game.
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    For the Acquisitive contract slot, would a boost to Manufactories work?

    Perhaps a 10 / 15 / 20% production boost in cities with a Manufactory.
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    For Visionary's contract slot, I propose Inventor's Fair, granting +1 / +2 / +3 Scientist, Artist, and Trader specialist slots in the Capital.
     
  15. DefiantMars

    DefiantMars King

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    I definitely like the idea. I'm struggling in coming up with an elegant way of simultaneously providing an appropriate level of gating while not making the system feel clunky. I think this will help that out.

    Provided the end-game arrives around the same time as its currently does, I think it might be better to use the lower level requirement. That way the effects have more time to be in effect.

    It would also provide Hybrids a bit more breathing room. Since it seems like their military units come in later than the Primaries and their Affinity Wheel bonuses just barely come in sooner.

    Some of the Bonuses could get really interesting with the Hybrids if people found the right synergies.

    Harmony

    Spoiler :
    I think it could work. This one is kind of bloated but it requires quite a high level of commitment to the playstyle in order to be worthwhile, and I would like to reward that.

    Most probably. For me the non-combat bonuses are more a scion of the overall perk. Almost like icing on the cake, but not quite so accidental. It might be too low, but at the same time, I don't want to make the Military choices overwhelmingly obvious to grab.


    Purity

    Spoiler :
    Definitely. I was more trying to get the idea "on paper". I think it would be balanced enough.

    I don't think it quite matches either, but its a start. Definitely need to brainstorm this one.

    Very good point. When I consider it, if Affinity wars come into play that same zeal would easily apply to sponsors of opposing belief. So making it all kills would still make sense. At higher levels, this could easily turn a profit so to speak with regard to culture. Take out a Xeno Titan, ANGEL, or even an enemy LEV Destroyer? Your people would probably make a holiday to commemorate the occasion.

    I will definitely change that.

    I think this would definitely suffice. I think it would match the mindset of the current version.


    Supremacy

    Spoiler :
    I actually quite like that. If you want to specialize in something, this would provide a reasonable margin of increase, especially if you've picked up some Traits or Virtues that synergize with it.
     
  16. Galgus

    Galgus Emperor

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    Ideally the affinity level unlocks would be paired with delaying the end-game victory rush to around affinity level 17.

    The game ends really quickly at the moment.

    I'll try to think of an alternate Loyal contract name.
     
  17. DefiantMars

    DefiantMars King

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    Between the requirement for affinity level and the diplomatic capital requirements to gain and unlock 5 traits (provided you don't swap any out) I think it would be wiser to provide access to the effects at lower levels.

    I wish that the current Affinity requirements for the victory wonders were actually up at 16 or 18.

    Anyway, I've put a placeholder name for the Loyal agreement for the time being.
     
  18. Galgus

    Galgus Emperor

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    Perhaps the Loyalty trait could be called "Political Networking"?

    The idea would be a campaign network gathering support for desired policies and support for desired research.

    Agreed on the victory wonders.
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    Harmony
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    For Environmentalist, I think the Diplomatic Capital bonus should scale since it feels very central to the trait.

    The leash bonus is flavorful, but mechanically it feels a bit tacked on.\
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    We disagree on how powerful the military bonuses should be, but I think the Predatory trait at least needs higher yields on Alien nests.

    It must be able to compete with Xenowells, which are quite solid improvements.
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    With the requirement of having patches of Forest, I think Conservationist might be balanced with a stacking bonus.

    It would make for a huge amount of Culture, but it would require keeping otherwise suboptimal tiles in one's territory.

    I also like the idea of Moai Forests as an incentive to preserve impressive National Parks of a sort.
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    Purity
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    I kind of think the Monumentalist bonuses could afford to be higher since Gold and Copper are not incredibly common as basic resources and there is only so much Floatstone.

    In my experience one is far more likely to find more of the other basic resources.
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    Perhaps Prudent's Diplomatic Capital bonus could be reworked to +.5 or less Diplomatic Capital for each building in the Capital?

    It would work well with its other bonus, and it would somewhat fit the theme of efficient construction knowledge.
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    Aquisitive's current Production bonus feels like it should either scale somehow, perhaps one Production for every 6 / 5 / 4 citizens or somesuch, or that it should be replaced with a mine resource Production bonus alongside the current Energy bonus.

    We still disagree on the dichotomy of acquisitive vs polished or relaxed, but mechanically it seems to work.
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    Supremacy
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    The Independent Systems contract seems rather over the top, though I suppose the bonuses not stacking would help balance it out.

    It could possibly work with half the values.
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    There aren't many issues to still work out with this, other than balance fine-tuning that is almost impossible without seeing gameplay.
     
  19. DefiantMars

    DefiantMars King

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    I think that could work

    Harmony

    The goal was to provide support for the playstyle of harnessing aliens. I'm not sure how to make it feel intrinsic. Its an interesting concept and I wanted to reinforce it... that makes me a bit sad, but if it doesn't mesh I need to drop it.

    I can agree with increasing the yield though. I wonder if 5/10/15 would be too much? I mean keeping nests is a bit deal, so it may be worth it.

    You have a very good point. It "should" be safe. Since Lumber mills and trading posts aren't a thing.

    Purity

    This one makes me a bit nervous for some reason. I'd feel comfortable with a small bump. I may switch the Production and Energy since Energy is a "weaker" yield.

    Definitely. Sounds like a pretty good idea.

    I think the pop feels better mechanically, since there aren't other instances of that in this Trait list, but I see high potential overlap with the Specialist increase due to both requiring pop to work... Not quite sure what to do here.

    Supremacy

    ... yeah I think I'll do that... lol. Actually, I've switched the deal and the Trait and adjusted accordingly.
     
  20. Galgus

    Galgus Emperor

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    The Environmental bonus for leashing fits, but it feels like the more civilian elements of it are the main parts.
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    I think Monumentalist is strongest from a flavor perspective as Production / Culture.

    As far as its strength goes, beyond not working on many tiles it must compete with a locational agnostic, though maintenance requiring, tile buff.

    It's roughly the same type of balance call between Adaptive and Sustainable, and I'm still worried that Sustainable would end up being out-competed in that match by the inevitable large city size.

    (Though there are those resource creating satellites I'm not a fan of that could make Sustainable great as-is.)

    Ideally Sustainable in a food resource rich area should create huge cities while Monumental on the relevant basic resources should mean quickly developed infrastructure and border expansion.
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    The Autonomous contract bonus as the new trait bonus doesn't work as well thematically in my opinion, since part of the idea is that the city tile is (somewhat) self-sufficient.

    The dichotomy with Developmental is weaker with the trait as tile upgrades.
     

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