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Aggressive AI

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by pernas, Jul 12, 2018.

  1. pernas

    pernas Chieftain

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    I've been playing Vox Populi for a while, and one thing that bothers me a lot is random AI wars. I just ignore diplomacy entirely now since it seems so useless. Luxuries are useless, and I can never succeed proposing declarations of friendship, and even if I am at friendly terms with a civ they'll still war me anyways.

    AIs across the world or across mountains or similarly impossible invasions keep declaring war on me even at friendly. They will many times have a couple of units and not pose a threat at all. It just makes games drag way longer than normal, since there has to be a lot more micromanagement of troops every turn.

    I usually play on King, but I've found the same behavior when playing on prince, and I don't play emperor because this annoyance is even greater because the AI has more units.
     
  2. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    First, use 'Transparent diplomacy' when creating a new game. This way you can monitor real opinion on your actions and check what you are doing that pisses AI.
    Second, read some photojournals (Strategy subforum), there are many examples on how to deal with diplomacy. It is completely possible to make friends, but you need to invest on it.
    Third, make sure your army is not pityful. No matter how friendly they are, if you are too weak, AI will attack.
     
  3. HeathcliffWarriors

    HeathcliffWarriors Chieftain

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    The AI is probably declaring war on you because of one of the following:
    1) They gain the favor of other AIs - third-party brokered wars are common, and they may want bonuses for denouncing/DoWing you;
    2) They think you're getting too close to victory (indicator: "Your behavior worries/infuriates them." or "They know you are competing with them, and they hate it!")
    3) They consider you to have a weak military and an attack to be opportunistic (indicator: insults about how weak your military is if you talk to them)
    4) They're your neighbor and want your lands. (indicator: "Territorial disputes strain your relationship.")

    Note that many negative modifiers are hidden while FRIENDLY (Transparent Diplomacy will show them, as will going to war or changing their approach to something other than FRIENDLY).

    The AI in VP is highly competitive and plays to win.

    Deterring attacks by keeping a strong military is the best route; AIs will declare war less frequently if your military power is greater than theirs.

    Also, they're likely to avoid making Declarations of Friendship with you if you are a warmonger, control a lot of enemy cities/capitals (especially their own), if you are way in the lead, or if a lot of other people hate you.
     
  4. pernas

    pernas Chieftain

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    But if I need to be top military to not be attacked from people on the other side of the globe I might as well just play Zulu or Monty every game. It makes no sense to have a huge standing army to not be attacked. As I said I do keep a decent army, and can repel invasions, it just gets really annoying having to micro every turn.
     
  5. HeathcliffWarriors

    HeathcliffWarriors Chieftain

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    You're not the only one who's raised that concern; the AI tends to be aggressive and declare war even when they've lost the last three times, or even sometimes when they have no real hope of winning (brokered wars are common).

    Unfortunately, unless G were to change AI aggression in some way, having a large military is the best deterrent. AIs, like in vanilla, have trouble with calculating economic power and consider the pointy stick measure to be of the utmost importance.

    Still, it's better than the extremely pacifist vanilla AI.

    You can always vassalize them if they get too annoying. :p
     
  6. HeathcliffWarriors

    HeathcliffWarriors Chieftain

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    Two other things to note: the AI considers you to have a larger military than you do at higher difficulties (I believe they consider you to have 2x your military power on Deity).

    And if they're declaring war from the other side of the globe, it's probably a diplomatic move with no real follow-up coming.
     
  7. pernas

    pernas Chieftain

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    It feels more like you have to vassalize every neighbor if you want to avoid pointless wars in this mod. :lol:

    The infuriating part for me is that every game ends up playing the same. No matter who you're playing as, or who your neighbor is, you will get attacked, doesn't matter if it's Monty or Gandhi.

    You can't play a peaceful game because even the korea AI you're trading with will waste hammers on units slamming into you instead of infrastructure. If you want to not be attacked you need a huge military and if you are going to have a huge military, might as well conquer your neighbors since they keep pestering you. And then everyone hates you because obviously you're the warmonger. :lol:
     
  8. John.B.C

    John.B.C Chieftain

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    I've had a few peaceful games, but they are rare. Sooner or later the AI will attack you (if you are doing good). But, mostly I manage to deelay AI-aggressions to late game by nurturing good relationships. But as I said, if you are doing very good, they will attack you. But I had a few games when it didn't happen at all.

    Getting good at diplomacy is a huge part of this game (you have to play with "transparent diplomacy"). When you get the knack of it, it's quite easy.

    EDIT: A tip, "gift" gold or luxuries and get trade value up to "35", that's a good start, and will outweigh any negative "territorial dispute". Before I knew that this was really worth doing, I got into so much trouble because of poor relationships. Every game was a "wait" for, "when are they going to attack me?"
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2018
  9. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Warlord

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    This is not true. I had dozens of games where i was very peaceful Tradition->Artistry civ and had 5-10 units for the whole game. And didn't have a lot of wars, maybe 2 or 3 for the whole game. It is possible, but you probably doing it wrong. For example stuff like denouncing leaders that your friends denounced does work really good. It is possible for sure, at least if your neighbor is not Shaka
     
    vyyt likes this.
  10. CppMaster

    CppMaster Chieftain

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    Also trading with AI when a deal favors them helps
     
  11. Moi Magnus

    Moi Magnus Warlord

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    Though having temporarily a huge army can be very convinient, since it help creating alliances (and maybe get rid of the neighboor that really bother you). Then, once you have some good allies, you can just maintain a smaller defensive army.
     
  12. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    As @Owlbebach said peaceful is possible even on Deity. (where AI is even more likely to attack you.)

    Some other suggestions is to avoid sitting on your ass and twiddling your thumbs until the AI conspires behind your back and everyone hates you. By denouncing people that people you're friendly with denounce, making positive trade deals and other methods you can be proactive in making someone else the guy everyone hates and skate by until it's too late.

    That said I'm beginning to think that a casual 'nice-guy AI' modmod will need to be released for gold, so very casual players can enjoy it. The AI's current level of aggression is very good for it's chances to win, but if you don't want a real challenge then someone could probably make that happen.
     
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  13. HeathcliffWarriors

    HeathcliffWarriors Chieftain

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    I wonder if tweaking AIDeclareWarProb would accomplish anything for that...I know it increases AI desire to attack you if you're doing well, in the few code sections it's been retained in.
     
  14. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    Playing Prince is not that hard to be friendly. The most common mistake is not building enough units, for builder players.
     
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  15. HeathcliffWarriors

    HeathcliffWarriors Chieftain

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    I don't see your point...

    We all know that behind that peaceful, pantheon-on-turn-1 smile that man is the most dangerous existential threat to human civilization.

    OUR WORDS ARE BACKED WITH NUCLEAR WEAPONS!!!
     
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  16. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch

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    The AI is not excessively aggressive - it is simply more opportunistic and intelligent. It actually knows how to play the game relative to vanilla.

    G
     
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  17. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Warlord

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    Honestly i played 1000+ hours and i was attacked by Gandhi one single time about 1,5-2 years ago. And i really pissed him of hard by denouncing, stealing his land, spying and finally converting him to my religion (it was that funny time when India didn't have Inquisitors and it was possible to convert it entirely and get huge pressure on everyone around)
     
  18. pernas

    pernas Chieftain

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    Something like a chill AI option would be nice. I don't play super competitive and cutthroat against AI opponents, and I see no reason why they would have to be cutthroat to me either. It's why I play in lower difficult settings, since I don't enjoy stealing workers/settlers, perma raiding the AI and other such "exploits".

    It would be nice if the AI that's not going for a military victory not to just yolo war you every game. I can stop their invasions with like 4 units, it's just a pain in the ass to deal with every single game. And if I'm building a large enough military that they don't consider me a wimp, I might as well kill them since the human player can use units so much better.

    The AI really doesn't bring enough to offensive wars and just throws stuff at you. The only exception is Songhai, which is beyond broken with their UU and will wreck face always. :p
     
  19. pernas

    pernas Chieftain

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    It still doesn't know how to deal with one unit per tile mechanics, so even when it thinks it can win, it just loses a lot of hammers in units to a player because they judge him weak.

    I wasn't really saying they're not competitive, just that human players who play civ aren't necessarily that competitive either. For me at least, Civ is more about building a cool empire, instead of exploiting every tiny weakness in your neighbors. I think AI aggressiveness could definetly be toned down in lower difficulty levels.
     
  20. tu_79

    tu_79 Warlord

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    There's a small issue here. People that play on lower difficulties usually handle both warfare and economy poorly. But sometimes, a player handles one thing better than the other. Difficulty is based around that in lower difficulties players handle warfare worse, so you are required to build more units in lower difficulties, to make up for your lower warmongering skills.
    You have two options. Either build more units, either move up difficulty level (you can make use of your better military skills to make up for your bad economy strategy).

    Civ V is not SimCity. Even if you like to play peacefully, the other civs are there willing to take your richies, so you need a sizeable army if only to protect yourself.
    It isn't Total War Civ either, so as long as your army is scary enough, you can play your builder game. But in this case, do yourself a favor and try to attack and pillage your neighbours once in while, without taking cities. Veteran units and great generals are good to have even in peaceful gaming.
    In top of that, Vox Populi tries to encourage players to make use of every present mechanic. It's a good thing in my opinion. Sometimes we have here warmongers complaining about their units falling off really fast, then we realize that they neglected the economy. Most of the times, complaints come from players that neglect military.

    If you really like to play SimCiv, try playing Inca. Their highly defensive starting terrain let's you build your economy quite undisturbed. A few slingers over mountains, some melee for protecting lines and you are ready.
     
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