Agricultural bonus: how does it work?

[morchuflex]

Hello.

As an agricultural Civ, I should have +1 food on the central tile of every city, but it seems to work only for those that are built by lakes or rivers. The manual says nothing about such a restriction. Can anyone help me?

 

[Pfeffersack]

The reason is the despotism penalty - it kills the bonus, unless you are near fresh water.If you get out of despotism you will get three food in every city tile.

 

[morchuflex]

Thanks. I suspected something like that... It seriously weakens this attribute, IMO.

 

[ThePrankMonkey]

thats stupid, really. are sea faring civs naval units more prone to sinking during despotism? are all traits null and void during despotism? i'm betting no. so why hamstring this trait and the civs that have it?

 

[Cuivienen]

Err... As is Agricultural is the strongest trait in the game. You want to make it stronger, be my guest, but it'll be ridiculously overpowering.

 

[Pfeffersack]

@ CivIIenthusiast

I strongly disagree.Yes, it weakens agricultural a bit...which is absolutely necessary for balance.Without this restriction it would be a no brainer to have it as civ trait.The advantage to non-agricultural civs would be to big.And more important...it is not the only benefit from agricultural - you get desert tiles with a food output of plains and some cheaper buildings (solar plant and recycling center may not have that great impact, but halfpriced aqueducts are nice for fast growing).Even if you start completly without fresh water (the "worst" case for agricultural) it is still not useless.

 

[morchuflex]

Err... As is Agricultural is the strongest trait in the game.

I can't imagine any trait beating industrial. It works from day one in every situation and the effects are cumulative. If you do not see the power of industrial, it may be that you don't build enough workers.
Sometimes, I start on islands almost entirely covered by jungle. If I'm not industrial, it's a lost game. If I am, it's a likely victory because I'll quickly turn all this jungle to grassland.

 

[Longasc]

You are both wrong. I know the all-perfect trait, but I will not tell you, because it is super secret and you will have to prove worthy of this knowledge before!

 

[Arathorn]

I can't imagine any trait beating industrial.

I would humbly suggest that you invest in a new imagination. I think if you took a poll of the top players (HoF, SG, GOTM, multi-player) what the best trait was, and could get honest answers, the vast majority would say Agricultural. The power of food and extra people is not to be denied. SirPleb's HoF Sid game, Moonsinger's HoF Sid game, my Sid Always War game, the two successful (to date) Sid SGs...they all have in common the Agricultural trait...and little else.

If you're talking pre-C3C days, I can see an argument that Industrious is the strongest. I think you'd get some disagreement, but at least there's a strong case there. With the downgrading of Industrious in C3C and the power of Agricultural, it's not close. Arguing Industrious as the second-most-powerful trait will find a lot of support (not me, personally, but I would definitely agree it's a very debateable issue). But #1? Not gonna happen.

I would suggest you build a lot more workers when not Industrious. Jungle starts? No problem. It's even easier with an Agricultural civ than with an Industrious one, simply because of the extra food, meaning extra population, meaning more workers easily. 3 non-industrious workers are as good as 2 Industrious and it's not impossible to adjust your thinking to just build a whole lot more workers when not Industrious. Some of us manage to do it just fine, regardless of the start.

Arathorn

 

[ThePrankMonkey]

ok i'm currently playing a game as the maya. industrious AND agricultural.

in despotism i didnt notice a difference between the maya and any other civ i've used before. now i did notice the industrious part but it wasnt exactly significant IMO. what i did notice but didnt like was as i was expanding my empire...i complete the great pyramid and boom...golden age was upon me. i hadnt even really got close to finishing the expansion of my empire when this happened and didnt do a great deal for me. about all it did was make the techs go by a tad faster and that was about it. no extra money (i was still in despotism at the time) and i had hardly any infastructure to my empire. i barely had a handful of buildings done! (i tend to pump out settlers and spearmen constantly at the start of the game)

i didnt like getting a golden age i wasnt really able to fully utilize. all i did was get a couple more techs out of the way during htoise 20 years. thats about it. i didnt notice a boost in production, seriously, maybe it was because i was in despotism.

i DID notice that the aqueducts are easier to build, not by much IMO but a tad easier to build but the recycling center...well by the time i get to is most of my cities can building them in 2-4 turns so shaving a turn or two off isnt really doing me much a favor really). the industrious part i noticed more as my workers made shortwork of mountains hills jungles, forests...no problem roading them clearing them mining them...i was more impressed with the industrious side than the agricultural trait when i finally got out of despotism. i just could believe that my workers were getting work done so fast! i made a large number of them as i tend to do that when playing as japan but i didnt need so many. i wound up joining half of them back into my cities or selling them off to other civs. i DID like seeing my desert cities grow beyond 2 or 3 population earlier than i'm used to seeing them grow. and i WAS impressed with that part of the trait.

i just didnt like having a trait i couldnt utilize for practically one whole era. that and the way too early golden age. (i'm a great wonder monger and i have to have them all altohugh mayeb i could just build granaries next time instead?)


i understood the point of them doing what they did to this trait in despotism but during almsot an entire era you have a trait you cant use. by the time you DO get to use it other civs can be out growing you and you'll really need the trait then.

and no beelining for monarchy isnt an option, i'd rather know where iron is and build other wonders like the great library and get to build things like libraries market places and courthouses so i can further my research efforts and make money than get out of despotism because they saw fit to hamstring one of my traits for about 1/4 of the game.


all of this being said i am also having to learn how to use this trait to its full advantage. i'm experimenting with controlling all the workers myself instead of putting them all on "automated this city only" mode. this would take more advantage of my traits IMO than simply putting them on autopilot. i also need to learn what terrain yto do what to. i have become so automated worker reliant that i am having to learn things i should be well versed in. i'm mining bonus grassland and irrigating regular grassland alothugh i dont think i should be doing this....but that's what i need to do, LEARN.

maybe my reaction to this seems a tad whiney but i still dont think its fair any one trait is singled out in despotism. why not have them all held back? that way EVERYONE is on a level playing field and once things are off and running, its every man or woman for himself and the traits are then used to their full advantage. maybe my idea is stupid but it beats singling out civs with a specific trait IMO. i guess my idea of fair and balanced differs from everyone else's. i still like the trait though. even though i didnt make a single javelin thrower. i knopw, flog me now and get it over with. i just dont use UU's.

 

[Cuivienen]

The point is that the Agricultural trait is FAR from useless in the Ancient Era. You should make a point of building most of your cities on fresh water, anyway, but especially when you are playing as an Agricultural civ. Your comment that you built Aqueducts everywhere makes me think you threw reason to the winds and built cities specifically away from fresh water--exactly what you mustn't do at all, but especially as Agricultural.

The Agricultural trait gives you a huge edge in the land-grab phase (4000-~500 BC) because your cities are growing faster and so can produce Settlers and Workers faster.

Just one final point -- Industrious is worse than both new traits in Conquests, Agricultural and Seafaring. The Dutch are the strongest civ in the game with a powerful UU and the two best traits (though the Maya come close).

Trip's "The Case For Food" Strategy Article

 

[morchuflex]

I would humbly suggest that you invest in a new imagination. I think if you took a poll of the top players (HoF, SG, GOTM, multi-player) what the best trait was, and could get honest answers, the vast majority would say Agricultural. The power of food and extra people is not to be denied. SirPleb's HoF Sid game, Moonsinger's HoF Sid game, my Sid Always War game, the two successful (to date) Sid SGs...they all have in common the Agricultural trait...and little else.
Arathorn

All right: I bow to your wisdom and that of other experts. 90% of my Civ3 XP so far was with vanilla and I'm still trying to fathom the subtleties of C3C.
But the power of agric is at least dependant on the world settings you choose. I personnally play on large, archipelago with max (80%) oceans, to minimize early confrontations and make exploration more interesting. And very often, I start on an island that has little, or even NO fresh water at all, making the agric trait next to useless for the most important part of the game.
With these settings, I would say the best Civ is Carthage, followed by the Byzantines, then maybe Spain, then the other seafaring civs.

As for jungle clearing, I know how to do that... But to build the tons of non-industrial workers you need, you must have at least a good starting city with food bonuses, otherwise it takes too long and you fall behind.

At least, Indus helps whatever the situation.
However, I agree the Dutch seem very powerful in C3C. They usually end amongst the top civs in most of my games.
Anyway, thanks for helping.

 

[ThePrankMonkey]

Your comment that you built Aqueducts everywhere makes me think you threw reason to the winds and built cities specifically away from fresh water--exactly what you mustn't do at all, but especially as Agricultural.

no i have a pattern with which i build my empire, yes this hurts sometimes but building an aqueduct isnt a build deal to me. i have seen certain parts of maps with no rivers or lakes, lots of grassland but no water. sometimes i've been in the middle of that. do i suddenly move my entire civilization to another part of the map opr simply deal with what i've been given and make the most of it? i tend to just deal with the terrain as it is. i rarely deviate from my "pattern" but my pattern has worked for me about 90% of the time in the games i play, on huge maps. my pattern and style of play might seem stupid or unreasonable but not all of my cities need an aqueduct, some do, some dont. its a luck of the draw sometimes. i do tend to lay out my pattern according to the terrain and i do try to place my cities near rivers and such. like i said, sometimes i start out really lucky with a lot of rivers, other times, i only get a river or two. thats how the game is. with my current game i have rivers but part of my empire doesnt have a river near it. but if i only place cities where i find water/rivers i'd have a smaller empire. but that section seems more productive than my core of cities where i started the game. now i did get lucky with having a couple cities on a mountain range that had a river and flood plains running through it. and those cities are large and very productive even though the're a few cities away from my capitol.

we cant always have a river or water in every city we build.

 

[kb2tvl]

aggies get a food bonsus with the completion of an aquaduct in despo.... I know that most players exit out of despo asap but as a point of interest an aggy can continue in despo until they have more size 7 cities. By doing this you have a smoother transition to Rep/mon.

 

[general_kill]

I would humbly suggest that you invest in a new imagination. I think if you took a poll of the top players (HoF, SG, GOTM, multi-player) what the best trait was, and could get honest answers, the vast majority would say Agricultural. The power of food and extra people is not to be denied. SirPleb's HoF Sid game, Moonsinger's HoF Sid game, my Sid Always War game, the two successful (to date) Sid SGs...they all have in common the Agricultural trait...and little else.

If you're talking pre-C3C days, I can see an argument that Industrious is the strongest. I think you'd get some disagreement, but at least there's a strong case there. With the downgrading of Industrious in C3C and the power of Agricultural, it's not close. Arguing Industrious as the second-most-powerful trait will find a lot of support (not me, personally, but I would definitely agree it's a very debateable issue). But #1? Not gonna happen.

I would suggest you build a lot more workers when not Industrious. Jungle starts? No problem. It's even easier with an Agricultural civ than with an Industrious one, simply because of the extra food, meaning extra population, meaning more workers easily. 3 non-industrious workers are as good as 2 Industrious and it's not impossible to adjust your thinking to just build a whole lot more workers when not Industrious. Some of us manage to do it just fine, regardless of the start.

Arathorn

very thorough explanation, and it is because of that, the agricultural trait should get "nerfed"(weakened) in the next patch. I'm sure plenty of people knew it would be overpowered before even playing it.

 

[WillSen]

i played as maya, and strugled a little in the techs on emperor so i tried ottomans which are great