AI Aggression levels (please discuss here).

I dont know exactly what to read into your post, but I think what you are attempting to do then far exceeds simply making the AI 'better'. To do what you are looking to do would require removing all of the AI 'personality' as well as the diplomacy engine since those items clearly restrict the AIs and not the human players. You'll never achieve the 1/n chance of a win with the AI if they are constrained while the players are not.

All that aside, I think it should be fairly clear by now that simply increasing the number of units that the AIs build doesnt really contribute to that goal all that much. Its not altering the chances of a game win by any particular party. It is diminishing the returns of military action (by players or AIs). If that is intended, then so be it. But it IS a new dynamic created by the latest builds.
 
Blake said:
I also want balanced gameplay - a multiplayer game is balanced superbly despite the "1/N" thing
As someone who has never played multiplayer how (if at all) will this impact on AI personalities? I play random leaders and the traits of that leader only have a minimal impact on the way I play. Of course that's just me. My concern is that AI leaders will go against their personality in pursuit of this balanced gameplay ideal, which is something I'd rather not see happen.
 
I dont know exactly what to read into your post, but I think what you are attempting to do then far exceeds simply making the AI 'better'. To do what you are looking to do would require removing all of the AI 'personality' as well as the diplomacy engine since those items clearly restrict the AIs and not the human players. You'll never achieve the 1/n chance of a win with the AI if they are constrained while the players are not.

All that aside, I think it should be fairly clear by now that simply increasing the number of units that the AIs build doesnt really contribute to that goal all that much. Its not altering the chances of a game win by any particular party. It is diminishing the returns of military action (by players or AIs). If that is intended, then so be it. But it IS a new dynamic created by the latest builds.

I probably should've put more emphasis on "Friendly Multiplayer" - that's not the cuthroat type where you play to win and ignore all "fluff" game aspects, but like where you might decide to not attack someone because they share your religion (then be surprised offended when they backstab...).

You're missing the big picture - as long as the AI has too small armies, conquering them becomes "The one right strategy" - regardless of your situation, you should attack your under-defended neighbors. The problem is - this means at higher difficulties everything has to be balanced around "The one right strategy" - since the AI's deficiency at fighting is not in any way corrected, the AI instead gets boosted in the other direction - it techs even faster, and the One Right Strategy becomes even more reinforced.

In the ideal world for me, it would be possible to win by space race on Deity, if the AI's spend enough resources fighting and (somehow) you manage to stay out of the crosshairs. I have absolutely no problem at all with tech stagnation caused by large-scale conflicts, it gives builders the chance to leap ahead.
And look at the conflict-induced dark ages in human history and the sheer amount of resources spent on war, Civilizations were torn down by "Barbarians" and kettle calling pot black aside - the "Barbarians" certainly proceeded to progress much less than the "Civilizations".

I'm not going for a historical simulation here, but:
WAR IS HELL.

That is one of my goals, war should be hell for those waging it and for those it is being waged on. I'll ease up on that for the normal AI setting, but under Aggressive AI, WAR IS HELL.
 
It can easily be argued that in the stock game (whether patched or not), the military budget needed to wage war was too low - warring was very cost-effective. Current BetterAI OTOH seems to have gone too far in the other direction: it's easy to spiral down the unit spam path, leading to economic stagnation.

The ways to avoid this depend on the neighbourhood. You can go for two different gambles:
1) Go light on military and work diplomacy to make sure you still can keep out of wars. You need enough land to keep economic advantage, and might try to capitalize on that advantage by beelining an advanced military tech that allows you a window during which you can go on offensive with fewer units, units that are technologically superior to those of your neighbours.
2) Go all-out war. Mass units, throw the kitchen sink at your neighbour. You still need to make sure nobody is going to attack you while you're going for someone - possibly by making sure everyone is busy warring.

Neither of the above is a surefire strategy. They depend on the types of neighbours you have (warmongers or peaceful builders) and can still fail. If you do succeed, you should be on the way towards victory, but should you fail you can go reroll. Due to the high risk/high reward nature of the strategies and the early phase of the game they need to be executed, I find them distasteful. The game is decided too early, the rest either being slow stagnation to death or a cruise for victory. There's no balance, no competitive endgame.

Note that going up or down difficulty levels is not really a viable solution: either the gamble is not necessary (going down enough you can compete without either gamble) and the gamble is only a way to win early on (you can gamble without fear of losing, as loss only means you need to play competitive game to the end); or the gamble is necessary, victory not being possible without gambling (again not good - you have to try a desperate strategy with high risk of failure to have a chance at competitive endgame).

If for any reason you get caught in the unit spam spiral of death, you no longer have a choice: you have to get something out of the military budget, so you have to go throw the kitchen sink at a neighbour. Should you lose that gamble, you can reroll. Victorious war may lead to competitive endgame or cruise to victory, depending on what the other civs were doing. Again, this is not balanced.

Also remember that if there's more than one continent and the different continents end up on different paths (one going the military route, the other going peaceful route), severe imbalance will already follow due to civs on one continent suffering from some degree of economic stagnation over what the other continent is having. You can see a glimmer of this already in stock game when one continent has peaceful builders / techers that happily trade and speed up the tech tree with the other continent consisting of more aggressive leaders that are grumpy tech traders and rather build units and go to war. In stock game, it's nothing a human player can't overcome: conquer the aggressors, take hold of at least a major part of the continent, develop the land and race the techtree powered by more land than anyone else has. But if the military budgets get higher, the difference between the strategies gets sharper as well.

Unfortunatelly whatever the point of balance, the human player will find a way to exploit the AI. If the AI doesn't build enough units, the human player will simply roll over it. If the AI builds enough units to make this impossible, then the military expenses (both hammers and maintenace costs) will drag the economy down causing stagnation - most likely exploitable by working lighter allowing the AI civs to stagnate. Neither option allows for balanced game. Therefore I still conclude that the balance will be found in the economic advantages and disavantages the human player will have from building a military that will invariably be enough to conquer the AI civ.

As I said earlier, I don't have a solution that would make warring hard but possible - I don't know how to make the AI smart in warring. I'm not even sure if fighting smart is possible using the civ combat engine - it is quite limited afterall. I do believe that between humans, diplomacy would play a huge role with the wars that are started by deals being decided more by the dealings before than on the field using units - the units are just an endgame for the diplomacy. And there's no way for AI to match this, to participate in this level of diplomacy. Due to the diplomatic castration, units end up playing the role of diplomats as well as the role of armies. Which leads us back to problem #1: how to use them in smart way?


I can't say I'd envy Blake's or Iustus' position here. There are good reasons why the AI needs to mass units (so the human player won't take them out easily), but OTOH that leads to other problems (unit spam spiral of death). If a solution that satisfies all parties exists and is found, great. If not, then the division of AI behaviour using the Aggressive AI setting is a good way to go.
 
You're missing the big picture - as long as the AI has too small armies, conquering them becomes "The one right strategy" - regardless of your situation, you should attack your under-defended neighbors.

Absolutely agree. Even though people are CHOOSING not to attack the AI, I agree that its almost always a viable strategy in stock.

However the opposite extreme does not 'fix' the problem....it changes it. NOW the optimal strategy seems to be to build up your military and 'stay out of the crosshairs' as you call it. War is very likely not going to be profitable so avoiding it becomes paramount. But even trying to duck fighting doesnt allow you to deviate from the need to pour resources into the military left and right.

Somewhere between the two extremes is likely the 'right' answer IMO. If 2-4 units is too few and hordes of 15+ are too many, then the likely 'sweet spot' is closer to 6-8 IMO. Even that is probably too many in some cases once siege weapons are prevalent.
 
And so I spent enough time writing a single post that several were posted by others :)

Now I understand the design goals a lot better. It's a fine target, and I certainly hope it's reached some day. However, it's not what I'm looking for in the game, and thus I'm happy enough to have the not-so-aggressive AI setting that allows for different game.

The thing I'm looking for is a game that has its lows and highs, but where I have a fairly high chance of being competitive all the way to the end. The best game might not be one where I launch the spaceship - it could as well be one where Monty launches his ship three turns before I can. The major issue there is that I can play the game to the end knowing that I still have a chance.
If the game is for any reason decided too early, it becomes dull for me. If I have to decide on a gamble and lose or win during the middle ages, then what's the point in having eras after that? And if it's all about that single gamble, timing your tech and military for a single offensive, then that's the effective victory condition.

So if you want to think in 1/N terms, I would like to have something like (N-1)/N chance to get to modern era in competitive shape, then whatever chance to actually win (that's less important to me). That is: barring unusual conditions, I'm not out of the game before the ship parts are being built.
 
I just played a game of Civ1 and it really took me back. (Don't worry...I'm not going far off topic here.) What I especially noticed was how different military tactics were to what Civ has now evolved to (Civ4). In Civ1, when a unit was killed, everything in the stack was killed too except in cities, making SODs non-existent (for the most part). Zones of control also made for very interesting unit advances. Now we have Civ4, and the battle mechanics have made it preferable, or necessary as I'd argue, to put everything in stacks. I think it was the developers' intentions to put in collateral damage units to prevent the SODs (this was in the manual IIRC) but they fell short.

Anyway, this is not the place for me to argue how Civ4 rules could be improved. For the Civ4 we're stuck with I think making the AI 'better' will require bigger stacks. I'm not talking about ridiculous 20+ stacks in meaningless cities, but defending an important city with 10 or so units I think is justified.
I'd like to see the AIs use intel better like scouting and the recently-improved air-explorers to determine where other players (human or AI) have their main forces located, and then use this info to attack where they are weak (or defend where they are strong). I'm sure this is already done to some extent since I've seen AIs head for the most poorly defended cities of mine, even in stock Civ4. Amphibious landings would be awesome to see as I bet many human players are complacent about their coastal defenses (I know I am when playing against AIs).

I guess I'm just critical of the combat engine in Civ4, agreeing with Elandel's comments #44, and understanding that the BetterAI isn't necessarily going to please everyone.

All said, I think Blake and Iustus are doing well with the mod, and I agree with the project objective so I look forward to every new build release.

P.S. To those who were offended by Blake's 'wuss' comment. Seriously, Civ4 is A GAME and I'm sure the way one plays it does not reflect one's qualities as a person. I don't want to be rude but if you identify your gameplay that much with your personality you need to find bigger things to worry about. Besides.. in reality I'm sure it's equally likely that warmongers and builders are wusses.:lol:
 
Blake said:
That is one of my goals, war should be hell for those waging it and for those it is being waged on. I'll ease up on that for the normal AI setting, but under Aggressive AI, WAR IS HELL.
Do you have any plans as to how to achieve this? Crippling economy; Tech stagnation; war weariness?

Whilst more of a peacenik (read wuss ;)) than warmonger I fully admit that a Civ 4 game without war is actually a little boring. It is part if civilisation (both real and game).

I'm interested at this point to see whether there are alternatives to helping achieve your goal whilst returning unit numbers to a more reasonable number (IMO).
 
It sounds like an interesting design goal, Blake. While I'm not that familiar with multiplayer, I do understand the goal of an AI that is competitive on every aspect of gameplay, including the military aspect. Good luck as it sounds like a formidable task. :goodjob:
 
Lovely goal Blake, and Im in to it.


Now, I dont play with agressive AI on(might try somewhere in next version), and in my current game I dont see any unit spam yet. So I think its starting to work the thing between normal game and agressive AI game. Well we are heading now to the gunpowder era, lets see what happen..But I can play olny tomorrow or other later day argh!~

Cant wait! :D
 
My personal opinion is that Blake is going the right way.

I agree with the Blake the point of this mod, is to make sure the human player isnt special that its a 1/N chance of winning.

On my latest game using 25/01/07 aggressive AI, has been one of the most exciting yet.

Because it has not been all about me. 3 seemingly aggressive CIVs on my continent has taken out the the men in the middle partitioning them as they go.

I've managed to maintain a tech lead but they've now all pilled in on me and I've made some mistakes and lost a small city, but to me its working they have built up a bigger miltary force than me and are not afraid to use it.

I've had one example of Ghengis making peace with Rome and then declaring war the very next turn on Mansa, which was excellent because Ghengis had a huge army and he needed to use it or he'd go stale.

Good work Blake !

I do agree they've are some changes to balance which need to be made but some of these outside the scope of the project.

A particular bugbear of mine is inflation, the problem with it is it's completely based on time. Therefore if you manage to research quickly you can research even quicker, and if you research slowly you research even slower. I think this needs to be changed.

Uncle_Joe on this latest build using Aggresive AI, I have to say I'm not seeing huge stacks of unit because the AI are so keen to use their military when ever they have the chance.
 
The problem is that builder AIs are getting small chance when attacked...Or no chance at all..

Sure if they got good diplomatic relationship with their neighboor AND their neighboors are busy eslewhere, they got a big chance of even winnig the game, but that is not what normally happens..

And then we come to Defensive unit spam thing.

That is a bit complicated :lol:
 
The problem is that builder AIs are getting small chance when attacked...Or no chance at all..

Sure if they got good diplomatic relationship with their neighboor AND their neighboors are busy eslewhere, they got a big chance of even winnig the game, but that is not what normally happens..

And then we come to Defensive unit spam thing.

That is a bit complicated :lol:


This is what I am seeing in all my games with the 25/1 build.

If you are not building a huge army you will be attacked, no matter your diplomatic stance towards the AI.
This is resulting in it becoming a war game only.

Earlier builds were most impressive, with the AI doing well at culture, wonders and developing its citys well, but now it is too much of a warmonger game. The standard game is what I would expect from an aggressive AI setting.
 
In my opinion this is what it should be.

There is no point the warmonger CIV building a huge army and not using it. Remember it takes less units to defend than attack. So the builders still have a chance.

I mean how are Ghengis, Monty etc meant to win if they dont take over countries ? The point of this mode is so all the AI's can win somehow, Blake has already stated this.

If the aggressive AI's dont attack they stagnate. I mean some countries simply should disappear due to geography right from the start, especially if they are completely surrounded.
 
This is what I am seeing in all my games with the 25/1 build.

If you are not building a huge army you will be attacked, no matter your diplomatic stance towards the AI.
This is resulting in it becoming a war game only.

Earlier builds were most impressive, with the AI doing well at culture, wonders and developing its citys well, but now it is too much of a warmonger game. The standard game is what I would expect from an aggressive AI setting.

I dont think that the unit'spam' is a bad thing. Maybe tune down 2/3 in the non-agressive AI setting OK, but if its too much then any warmonger player can win easily..

The problem is that then when they get a good power and see that the neighboor is an easy prey, even if pleased, well..

I think Blake has to find somewhere in the code where he can restrict a bit more each AI to their personality..

@scu98rkr: For as much as you may like it, CIV is not a game olny about war..They have to gollow their own personality unless the choice would be REAL dumb and would destroy them completely..
But, for an example, Gandhi attacking a friendly CIV only because it would be relatively easy to conquer dont make sense in my mind...At least not with the Agessive AI setting off.
 
Im not particularly a warmonger. In fact I tend not to go to war, I tend to get into a lead just sit there.

One of the reasons I like this this build is because its makes me go to war. I cant just sit there out tech/building the enemy. I have to think about my defense as well.

Personally I feel this build gives the Warmongering AI's a chance, before they used to building up a huge army and not attack.

In my case I havent seen any non aggressive CIV's attacking mainly because the aggressive CIV's have attacked them before they can.

I dont think this makes the game JUST about war but you have to be aware of it !

Before the only way the AI could win was Cultural or Space race. Ie Ghengis, Monty etc could NOT win.

You could say this made the game too much about teching/culture.

If we want the warmongering AI's to stand a chance of winning (conquest/domination) and using their personalities. This sort of change is needed.

Have you ever seen an AI get close to winning conquest domination ?
 
I think one of the problems is war requires much more micro management and people get sick of this if they are constantly at war. Rather than the war it self being the problem.
 
Man, I didnt mean anything of it!

I love ot see that the warmongers AIs stand a chance!!

The problem is that the other AIs are going out of their personality because of the war! I think it should happen only with agressive AI setting on.
 
I used to only think 'bugger it I'm going to be attacked' when I had Monty / Alex on my borders or was a different religion etc.
Not when Gandhi researchs bronze working.
 
To me thats the point, if we want the AI to be better it has to do the unexpected.

Although Ghandi etc are meant to be more peaceful and lean towards building / culture. They need to be able to go to war if the opportunity is right.

For instance if your on an island with Ghandi, and think I wont build any defensive unit because its just Ghandi. Your exploiting him, because you know what will happen and he does nt.

Therefore if you do leave your self unprotected Ghandi should go to war because this is the best course of action. However Ghandi should be more inclined for peace if your forces are about equal than Monty for instance. All AI should be capable of all tactics if the situation is right.
 
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