AI-friendly promotions (non-ground based)

[Bernd-das-Brot]

I created some (hopefully) balanced and interesting promotion trees on the base of a non-ground based promotion system. The most basic change is that the ground based promotion lines Drill/Shock (and Accuracy/Barrage) are replaced with Veteran I-V promotions which each give +10% Combat Strength (CS) anytime.

(Look here why I did this and think this change will make combat better: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=537617)


The Veteran promotions are prerequisites for the more specialised promotions which mostly don't add CS but make other combat abilities available.

I tried to create a balanced and pseudo-realistic (but gameplay goes first) promotion tree for each unit class. I looked through all possible promotions and added some that are only available to one or two unique units (or are even unused by my knowledge), but are too interesting to be seen/played so rarely.

Some of the higher tiered promotions are very powerful. Perhaps too much. I coloured these. What do you think?


By the way: How does the AI choose its promotions? Randomly? Can we influence its decisions?

 

[Bernd-das-Brot]

Melee and Gunpowder units (version 3, last changed 04.11.14)

Veteran I (+10 % CS)

- Cover I (+25 % CS against ranged attacks)

- Medic I (+5 HP to adjectend units healing and to the medic unit)

- Siege Experts I (+25 % CS against cities, 50 % of the damage dealt to a city as gold bonus)

- Woodsman (forests and jungles only cost 1 movement point) [As it makes terrain less important it would perhaps be better to make this only available to the civs and units which have it as a special trait, e.g. Atztec warriors or Arabia]

- Desert Traveler (desert only costs 1 movement point) [As it makes terrain less important it would perhaps be better to make this only available to the civs and units which have it as a special trait, e.g. Atztec warriors or Arabia]


Veteran II (+10 % CS)

- Amphibious (no penalty for attacking over river or while embarking) [Adding movement after river crossing if stil MP available?]

- Discipline (+15-20 % CS when next to another friendly unit) [AI often has the numbers.]

- Reckless (+20 % CS when attacking units, not cities) [Ingame name is Combat bonus when attacking, Funak stated it does not work against cities]

- Sentry (+1 sight)


Veteran III (+10 % CS)

- Medic II (+5 HP to adjectend units healing and to the medic unit)[I fear this could be way more helpful for the human player than the AI.]

- Blitz (more than one attack per turn)

- Siege Experts II (+25 % CS against cities, 50 % of the damage dealt to a city as gold bonus)

- Cover II (+25 % CS against ranged attacks)


Veteran IV (+10 % CS)

- Mobility (+1 movement)

- March (healing and moving/attacking in the same turn) [Eventually Veteran IV if Mobility is canceled.]


Veteran V (+10 % CS)

- Feared (adjecting enemy units -10 % CS) [Ingame name Haka War Dance]

- Skirmisher (ignore zone of control; name?) [Ingame name lightning warfare. To WW2 specific?]



Mounted and Armored units (version 2, last changed 03.11.14)

Veteran I (+10 % CS)

- Sentry (+1 sight)

- Charge (+20 % against wounded units)


Veteran II (+10 % CS)

- Marauder (no MP for pillaging needed)

- Reckless (+20 % CS when attacking units, not cities) [Ingame name is Combat bonus when attacking]


Veteran III (+10 % CS)

- Blitz (more than one attack per turn)

- Mobility (+1 movement)

- Repair (healing and moving/attacking in the same turn; only for armored units!!!)


Veteran IV (+10 % CS)

- Heavy charge (may force attacked unit to retreat if attacker makes more damage) [The Hussars special ability, but I think this is by far too cool to be only on one unique unit. But will still be rare as a Veteran IV promotion.]

- Enhanced Flanking (+25 % CS when flank attacking)


Veteran V (+10 % CS)

- Feared (adjecting enemy units -10 % CS) [Ingame name Haka War Dance]

- Skirmisher (ignore zone of control; name?) [Ingame name lightning warfare. To WW2 specific? Could be extremly strong on a unit with 4+ MPs. Perhaps too strong?]

 

[Bernd-das-Brot]

Archery units (version 2, last changed 03.11.14)

Veteran Archer I (+10 % ranged CS)

- Cover I (+25 % CS against ranged attacks)

- Battle Hardenend I (+20 % CS, not ranged CS) [They would be a bit harder to kill in melee. I think +20 % is needed to have any effect as most ranged units have a low base CS so +10 or 15% would be relatively weak.]


Veteran Archer II (+10 % ranged CS)

- Cover II (+25 % CS against ranged attacks)

- Sentry (+1 sight)


Veteran Archer III (+10 % ranged CS)

- March (healing and moving/attacking in the same turn)

- Battle Hardenend II (+20 % CS, not ranged CS) [They would be a bit harder to kill in melee. I think +20 % is needed to have any effect as most ranged units have a low base CS so +10 or 15% would be relatively weak.]


Veteran Archer IV (+10 % ranged CS)

- Medic I (+5 HP to adjectend units healing and to the medic unit) [Should this be in the Archery line? Or only on Melee/Gunpowder units? I prefer only melee units as standing in the back and shooting and healing in the same time is very powerful and unrealistic. Melee medics standing in the back row can not attack and in the front row they can get attacked themselves. kind of tradeoff.]


Veteran Archer V (+10 % ranged CS)

- withdraw before melee (chance decreased aginst fast units or when there are limited open tiles behind the unit) [Extremly strong, saving the precious ranged veterans. Player normally gets more so experienced units, so it may probably a disadvantage for the AI.]


Some of you may miss Logistics, Range and Indirect Fire. I have not forgotten them, but removed them intentionally, because...

- Logistics (2 attacks per round) is just plain and simle overpowered. A highly promoted ranged unit, just occupying one tile and making two devastating attacks in one turn! No way this gets balanced. Ranged units are in general too powerful in Civ5 and this is the most obvious example for this. Thal tried to balance it with making both attacks only 80-90% of the units ranged CS, but this was still too strong. And if we would make it weaker there is the danger that both attacks are so weak that they make less damage than one 100 % attack would. So I think its best and easiest to just remove it. (Or make it only available for the chinese UU.)

- Range (+1 range) is very strange and possibly overpowered too, especially in the hands of the human player who will profit more of two layers of archers behind the front line then the AI. And I feel its extremly unrealistic to have archers shoot three tiles far. (Honestly just even more unrealistic than archers shooting two tiles.)

- Indirect fire (attacking over obstacles) is so boring. It just removes meaningfull decisions from unit placement for archery units and adds nothing exciting in return.



Siege units

As siege units have a low basic ranged CS and get a huge rCS-bonus against cities (+200 %) the normal Veteran promotions with +10 % rCS would be nearly useless. So they get a special promotionline:

Siege Veterans I (+25 % rCS against cities)

- Cover I (+25 % CS against ranged attacks)


Siege Veterans II (+25 % rCS against cities)

- Battle Hardenend I (+20 % CS, not ranged CS) [They would be a bit harder to kill in melee. I think +20 % is needed to have any effect as most ranged units have a low base CS so +10 or 15% would be relatively weak.]


Siege Veterans III (+25 % rCS against cities)

- Cover II (+25 % CS against ranged attacks)


Siege Veterans IV (+25 % rCS against cities)

- Battle Hardenend II (+20 % CS, not ranged CS) [They would be a bit harder to kill in melee. I think +20 % is needed to have any effect as most ranged units have a low base CS so +10 or 15% would be relatively weak.]


Siege Veterans V (+25 % rCS against cities)

- Indirect fire (attacking over obstacles)

 

[Bernd-das-Brot]

Air units (except gunships)

Before I speak about the promotions there are some things about air units and the AI you should know.

(1) The AI "thinks" air units are ranged units like archers/siege units. So it is not aware that its units take damage when attacking! (Thal posted this roughly a year ago in the communitas forum. And I fear this is still the same in Beyond Earth. Great Firaxis!) This is why the AI uses its air units always in suicide style. I fear there can be nothing done against this problem, except trying to mitigate it a bit. My proposal is to give all AI-air units the Air repair-promotion for free. The AI will not heal its units when it can attack (not being aware it gets further damage), so we force the AI to do it.

(2) I have never seen the AI performing an air sweep and only rarely using ist fighters for interceptions. It mostly sacrifices them against stronger ground units or on city attacks. I have no idea if the AI can be forced/coded to use fighters only for interceptions (or even airsweeps) and not waste them on attacking units/cities.

(3) As the AI rarely uses interceptions and wastes its air units (as described above) it is by far to easy for a human player to get air superiority even with much smaller numbers. Another reason for this is that fighters are extremly strong against bombers when intercepting. Of course they should be better, they are the counter unit. But shooting a complete bomber of the same era with minmial damage every turn seems too much for me. Triplanes are clearly stronger than WW2-bombers, when intercepting! Reason for this is that all fighters get +150 %(!) rCS against bombers. To even the odds a bit on interception air fights and to help the AI (using its fighters mostly as weak bombers), I suggest to reduce this bonus but raise the base rCS of fighters a bit.

Great War Bomber (rCS 50)
Triplane (rCS 35, +150 % against bombers) - change to rCS 40 + 50-75 % against bombers

Bomber (rCS 65)
Fighter (rCS 45, +150 % against bombers) - change to rCS 50 + 50-75 % against bombers

Stealth Bomber (rCS 85, 100% Evasion)
Jet Fighter (rCS 75, +150 % against bombers) - change to rCS 75 + 50-75 % against bombers)


Now the promotions:

Veteran Pilot I (+10 % rCS)

- Range (+2 operational range)


Veteran Pilot II (+10 % rCS)

- Air siege (+25 % against cities, only bombers) [better name needed]


Veteran Pilot III (+10 % rCS)

- Evasion (-50 % damage from interception) [50 % may be too much]


Veteran Pilot IV (+10 % rCS)

- Sortie (2 interceptions per turn, fighters only)


Veteran Pilot V (+10 % rCS)



Naval units (ranged and melee)

Veteran Sailors I (+10 % CS for naval melee units//+10 % rCS and +5 % CS for naval ranged units)

- Coastal Raider (+10% CS against cities, 50 % of the damage done to cities as gold, melee only!)

- Sentry (+1 sight)


Veteran Sailors II (+10 % CS for naval melee units//+10 % rCS and +5 % CS for naval ranged units)

- Mobility (+ 1 MP)


Veteran Sailors III (+10 % CS for naval melee units//+10 % rCS and +5 % CS for naval ranged units)

- Blitz (may attack two times per turn, only melee units!!!)

- Supply (heal outside of friendly territory)


Veteran Sailors IV (+10 % CS for naval melee units//+10 % rCS and +5 % CS for naval ranged units)

- Mobility II (+ 1 MP)


Veteran Sailors V (+10 % CS for naval melee units//+10 % rCS and +5 % CS for naval ranged units)

- Indirect fire (attack over obstacles, only ranged)

 

[Bernd-das-Brot]

Reserved for whatever I may need.

 

[Lord Tirian]

First of all, that's a very comprehensive re-design, well done!

So, going through your posts, just some thoughts...

Melee/Gunpower Units:
Medic II is rather good, but I'd like to keep it even if the human can make more use of it than the player. I feel it's too much fun.
City Plunder is... odd. I know it's based on Coastal Raider, but it really should carry an analogous bonus in city attacks. I suggest the name Plunderer, seems to be more in line with the other promotions.
Mobility is fine, I think. I rarely thought melee units were too fast.
Feared... I suggest Intimidate as name.
Ignore ZoC: lightning warfare has overlap with Blitz as name. Is Skirmish(er) used for anything at the moment? Otherwise Storm could work, making them Stormtroopers!

Mounted/Armoured Units:
Free Pillage feels too good that early on as it heals quite a bit, I'd bump it up one level and put Charge here. Name suggestion: Marauder.
Ignore ZoC sounds very powerful here but on the other hand... it's the sixth promotion on the same unit, might be okay.

Archery Units:
Medic is fine, I think - but something one should keep an eye on.
Sentry... why are delaying it after Veteran Archer II? Why not just keep it after I?
Mobility is very potent, I'd scrap it on archery units or move it to Veteran Archer V.
Range - good riddance! Not a fan of it either (though the English Longbowmen should keep it).
Indirect Fire is good but it has to be earned, saying that it adds nothing is like saying "Veteran Archer adds nothing" - it might work as replacement for Mobility.

Siege Units:
Bit boring overall but probably fine, all in all.

By the way, what happened to Volley and Bombardment? Cut because the AI might not know when to build units with it? I'll add more thoughts regarding air units and naval units later.

 

[Gazebo]

Looking good. Like I said, if someone wants to take point on this XML, I'd be thrilled. I've got quite the task ahead of me, what with the dll and all.

(1) The AI "thinks" air units are ranged units like archers/siege units. So it is not aware that its units take damage when attacking! (Thal posted this roughly a year ago in the communitas forum. And I fear this is still the same in Beyond Earth. Great Firaxis!) This is why the AI uses its air units always in suicide style. I fear there can be nothing done against this problem, except trying to mitigate it a bit. My proposal is to give all AI-air units the Air repair-promotion for free. The AI will not heal its units when it can attack (not being aware it gets further damage), so we force the AI to do it.

I can fix this in the dll, I think. I'll look.
Edit: Whoward already fixed this. I suspected this.
G

 

[Bernd-das-Brot]

So, going through your posts, just some thoughts...

Melee/Gunpower Units:
Medic II is rather good, but I'd like to keep it even if the human can make more use of it than the player. I feel it's too much fun.
City Plunder is... odd. I know it's based on Coastal Raider, but it really should carry an analogous bonus in city attacks. I suggest the name Plunderer, seems to be more in line with the other promotions.
Mobility is fine, I think. I rarely thought melee units were too fast.
Feared... I suggest Intimidate as name.
Ignore ZoC: lightning warfare has overlap with Blitz as name. Is Skirmish(er) used for anything at the moment? Otherwise Storm could work, making them Stormtroopers!

Mounted/Armoured Units:
Free Pillage feels too good that early on as it heals quite a bit, I'd bump it up one level and put Charge here. Name suggestion: Marauder.
Ignore ZoC sounds very powerful here but on the other hand... it's the sixth promotion on the same unit, might be okay.

Archery Units:
Medic is fine, I think - but something one should keep an eye on.
Sentry... why are delaying it after Veteran Archer II? Why not just keep it after I?
Mobility is very potent, I'd scrap it on archery units or move it to Veteran Archer V.
Range - good riddance! Not a fan of it either (though the English Longbowmen should keep it).
Indirect Fire is good but it has to be earned, saying that it adds nothing is like saying "Veteran Archer adds nothing" - it might work as replacement for Mobility.

Thanks for your feedback, Lord Tirian. I will add/change most of your proposals.
Some changes I am not 100% convinced of:
- Medic II stays, but goes to Veteran III. Okay for you?
- Regarding Medic and Indirect Fire on Archery units, I will wait for more feedback as I would prefer to remove them. This is not a very strong opinion, so lets see what the others (hopefully) have to say. I especially dislike indirect fire because it removes meaningfull decision regarding unit placement.

Siege Units:
Bit boring overall but probably fine, all in all.

By the way, what happened to Volley and Bombardment? Cut because the AI might not know when to build units with it? I'll add more thoughts regarding air units and naval units later.

Siege units are very specialised, so it's hard to come up with many interesting choices. And I think the new version is still much more interesting (and balanced) than the old one, where most promotions were nearly meaningless as they only added 15% to the low base rCS. But if you have other fitting ideas I will gladly add them.

You are right in case of volley/bombardement. Mostly done it for the AI. And I don't think they add anything so intersting that the damage they would do to the AIs naval warfare are worth it.

Regarding the names of the promotions I took most of them directly from the civiopedia and some sound surely a bit strange. I will change them.

 

[Funak]

Melee and Gunpowder units (version 2, last changed 03.11.14)

Just looking at this wall of text in the quote-winding is giving me a major headache, but I promised I'd write something so I'll go for it.

Veteran I (+10 % CS)

- Cover I (+25 % CS against ranged attacks)

- Medic I (+5 HP to adjectend units healing)

- Plunderer (+10 % CS against cities, 50 % of the damage dealt to a city as gold bonus)

This far it looks good. Just 2 comments
1 - Medic should probably affect the unit with the promotion aswell like it does in CEP, would make the promotion more useful to the AI.
2 - Plunderer looks really weak, even assuming we fix the problem meleeunits have attacking cities in the first place this is just another point in Veteran that only works vs cities and doesn't move you up the tree. My suggestion would be either making it 'Siege 1' and the next Siege into 'Siege 2', maybe bumping this one up to 20% and splitting the goldbonus(Which probably is neglectable but sounds like a fun thing) between the two promotions. (Also making siege 1 a prereq for siege 2 naturally. Another possibilty would be buffing this one up the the same level as siege 2 and move the entire goldbonus there instead.

- Woodsman (forests and jungles only cost 1 movement point) [As it makes terrain less important it would perhaps be better to make this only available to the civs and units which have it as a special trait, e.g. Atztec warriors or Arabia]

- Desert Traveler (desert only costs 1 movement point) [As it makes terrain less important it would perhaps be better to make this only available to the civs and units which have it as a special trait, e.g. Atztec warriors or Arabia]

I think these are way too strong to be level 1 promotions, they should probably be moved further up the tree. Also there should probably be one for every terrain type aswell, snow and hills are left out (and probably something I'm forgetting, but whatever )

Veteran II (+10 % CS)

- Amphibious (no penalty for attacking over river or while embarking)

- Discipline (+15-20 % CS when next to another friendly unit) [AI often has the numbers.]

- Reckless (+20 % CS when attacking) [Ingame name is Combat bonus when attacking]

- Sentry (+1 sight)

1 - Amphibious is either fine here, or it could be moved up the tree and remove the movement cost of crossing a river, either is fine.
2 - Discipline was removed from policies(I think...) because the AI couldn't really handle it, not sure having it here again is smart(even if I personally like it)
3 - Reckless should probably read "When attacking units", the when attacking bonus never actually worked for cities anyways, but it is better to be clear.

Veteran III (+10 % CS)

- Medic II (+5 HP to adjectend units healing)[I fear this could be way more helpful for the human player than the AI.]

- March (healing and moving/attacking in the same turn) [Eventually Veteran IV if Mobility is canceled.]

- Blitz (more than one attack per turn)

- Siege Veterans (+25 % CS city attack)

1 - Medic II Same as Medic I,should work for the unit with the promotion like in CEP.
2 - March Always been the king of melee-promotions. If we actually manage to balance meleeunits to be something other than meatshields this might change.
3 - Siege Veterans see above

Veteran IV (+10 % CS)

- Mobility (+1 movement) [Early melee units with 3 movement could be a gamebreaker because melee units are too fast.]

- Cover II (+25 % CS against ranged attacks)

Getting a bit empty up here isn't it?
1 - I don't think mobility will be gamebreaking, 3 movement meleeunits isn't that hard to handle, and remember that you have to get 5 promotions to get here.
2 - Cover II solid as always, might add something else to it so people getting to Veteran 4 don't get dissapointed about getting the same promotion they got at Veteran I

Veteran V (+10 % CS)

- Feared (adjecting enemy units -10 % CS) [Ingame name Haka War Dance]

- Skirmisher (ignore zone of control; name?) [Ingame name lightning warfare. To WW2 specific?]

1 - I think the Haka War Dance should remain unique to the two units that actually have it.
2 - Skirmisher is probably way too powerful to be a promotion.


I'll do the rest later

 

[Bernd-das-Brot]

Just looking at this wall of text in the quote-winding is giving me a major headache, but I promised I'd write something so I'll go for it.

I am open for constructive suggestions regarding the layout.

1 - Medic should probably affect the unit with the promotion aswell like it does in CEP, would make the promotion more useful to the AI.

2 - Plunderer looks really weak, even assuming we fix the problem meleeunits have attacking cities in the first place this is just another point in Veteran that only works vs cities and doesn't move you up the tree. My suggestion would be either making it 'Siege 1' and the next Siege into 'Siege 2', maybe bumping this one up to 20% and splitting the goldbonus(Which probably is neglectable but sounds like a fun thing) between the two promotions. (Also making siege 1 a prereq for siege 2 naturally. Another possibilty would be buffing this one up the the same level as siege 2 and move the entire goldbonus there instead.

2 - March Always been the king of melee-promotions. If we actually manage to balance meleeunits to be something other than meatshields this might change.

I changed medic and merged siege/plunderer.
Put March in Veteran IV.

1 - Amphibious is either fine here, or it could be moved up the tree and remove the movement cost of crossing a river, either is fine.
2 - Discipline was removed from policies(I think...) because the AI couldn't really handle it, not sure having it here again is smart(even if I personally like it)
3 - Reckless should probably read "When attacking units", the when attacking bonus never actually worked for cities anyways, but it is better to be clear.

Perhaps reckless can be fixed to work on cities, too? But I think it would even be ok, if it is just working in the field.

Unsure about Discipline. If it's a problem for the AI we should remove it.

1 - I think the Haka War Dance should remain unique to the two units that actually have it.
2 - Skirmisher is probably way too powerful to be a promotion.

I don't think Skirmisher ist too powerful on a unit with 3 MP at best. And this has to be a unit with 7(!) promotions. I think it's ok as tier V promotion.