AI Puppet Empires - the Paper Tiger

dexters

Gods & Emperors
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As a preface, I'm not implying large AI empires are weak or paper tigers by default. The purpose is to refine AI behavior and make AI empires of this size more competitive vis a vis human players.

The genesis of this is that unpuppeting large cities can often be more productive and the culture increase can be offset by the ability to beeline to culture buildings instead of waiting for market>bank>stock exchange>no build>temple>stable>windmill type build orders of the puppet AI.

Issues:
  • AI will not annex conquered cities ;
  • 'Gold' Focus is often sub-optimal for larger cities which could build gold producing buildings/science and culture buildings at a faster rate on 'default' focus. Getting multiplier buildings up sooner is more effective! High production/pop cities could be put into better use producing MORE culture annexed; and units
  • Large AI puppet empires are often susceptible to 'total collapse' if their main armies are defeated or occupied elsewhere (say 2 front war with the 2nd front on the other size of their large empire) and their productive core is attacked on the other side. Leaving the rest of the empire prostrate and undefended. This quicky destroys their main armies and they are left feeding in a few units at a time per turn.
  • Capitol AI will routinely place a Civ's 2nd and 3rd capitals into a puppeted city, often of decent size. But the AI seems unable to deal with this - ie: notice their capital is a puppet.
  • The AI appears oblivious that they have puppeted cities

Solutions:
  • Allow AI to annex and rush buy courthouses in high pop/production cities, especially those in resource rich/food rich/production rich areas. This won't be universal, but they will do it for SOME of them. preference could be form size/growth potential/existing infrastructure/distance from capital (for symmetry)
  • Target cities that symeterically balance the current core, to spread out production over more nodes in a large empire
  • Do the annexing in the 'peace' phase after a conquest, not in the heat of the battle - The idea is for 'consolidation' rather than the current issue of a relatively small core dragging along a large empire that is completely dependent on the core to produce units and non commercial buildings

The applicable point for this idea is that I've seen the AI grow in asymeterical fashion, often on one side, with their core relatively exposed to invasion.

Luck/timing/chance will oftentimes cause these empires to collapse when their core is attacked. Despite having a relatively large/rich empire on the backend, there are no cities that produces anything to offset the loss in production at the core, accelerating the collapse.

The idea is NOT to change the way puppet mechanics work or to say puppet cities are bad. But rather to allow the AI to strategically upppet enough cities as they grow to increase production in a meaningful way.
 
I agree with that. AI decisions whether to annex or not needs work. Probably the worst example (different from your large empire example) is the Civ that is left with one city, but it's a puppeted city. They'll literally just leave it there and have no control over military production.
 
I agree with that. AI decisions whether to annex or not needs work. Probably the worst example (different from your large empire example) is the Civ that is left with one city, but it's a puppeted city. They'll literally just leave it there and have no control over military production.

Yes, that's a corollary point I wanted to make but forgot. Thanks for reminding me.

As a matter of fact, I've never seen the AI annex a city. Has anyone?
If there's logic for it, it must be bugged or the conditions so high that it is never met.
 
dexters, that's definitely one of the most down-to-earth and worthwhile proposals, I could read here since long.

I have to admit, I never made up my mind about "internal" AI usage of puppets!

How did you come to your observation, that an conquered AI city is a puppet or annexed by the AI? As far as I know, there is no sign for it - other than the non-building of units in puppets. But this can happen if the city builds other stuff, too...
 
dexters, that's definitely one of the most down-to-earth and worthwhile proposals, I could read here since long.

I have to admit, I never made up my mind about "internal" AI usage of puppets!

How did you come to your observation, that an conquered AI city is a puppet or annexed by the AI? As far as I know, there is no sign for it - other than the non-building of units in puppets. But this can happen if the city builds other stuff, too...

Puppet cities have the 'Godfather' animator (wooden cross with strings) symbol. You can see then even through fog of war, and exploring a bit will confirm this.

I'm almost 100% sure they don't annex.

As for my broader observation- this is from many playthroughs and observing the powerful AIs and how they perform and noting the strategies I used to stop them.

The issue is that they don't fully take advantage of their large holdings of cities and civs who suddenly become very big and take over an entire Civ are themselves susceptible to collapse because they have few production cities relative to the size of the (new) territory they have to defend. This makes AI runaway much more of a culture/diplo threat than a military one and you can prevent then from 'winning' culture and diplo just by attacking them, even on emperor difficulty and it's usually a fair/easy fight if you have a decent sized empire of your own. And that is somewhat of an issue from a balance/difficulty standpoint

Trying to stop a runaway to win in previous game involve a massive war. And absolute numerical inferiority requiring diplomatic treachery and bribes.
 
OMG! This is plain ridiculous! I played CiV over 1000 hours so far and *never* payed attention to this. :rolleyes:
I thought, the wooden cross just shows *your own* puppet states as an information for the human player! But of course you are right and they are displayed on AI puppets, too.

Well, we live and learn...
 
This idea makes sense. The issue is the AI being able to calculate the potential in annexing cities. If they are unable to do that, this could just mean they screw themselves over a helluva lot.
 
This idea makes sense. The issue is the AI being able to calculate the potential in annexing cities. If they are unable to do that, this could just mean they screw themselves over a helluva lot.

They can probably run a routine where the AI from time to time, calculates the hammer/gold/food output based on default focus of puppeted cities and compare it to the 'current' gold focus state. If it produces more food & hammer (meaning it can grow bigger and already has more production) it should annex.

Granted we can probably go on in detail about the specific rules and I don't claim to have all the answers. There will have to be arbitrary decisions made on cut off.

What the AI is lacking obviously is a production to empire size calculator that humans have (in our head, based on gut feel) , so that if you fall into a situation where your productive cities can't keep up with supplying units you can annex a few new cities to make up.

Granted I'm using a lot of vague wordings like
"can't keep up" (relative to what, how does AI determine it?)

And it is true that in some games, there is no need to annex. A good starting location and good settlements mean there are enough unit producing cities to sustain an empire. And with human players, this is less of an issue since we suicide our units less often, though the AI will do it so they need to be constantly cranking out new units.

For the AI, what is probably needed is to make sure there's enough un-puppeted production, rather than a flat rule like 1/10 of all cities must be unpuppeted or something like that. Because it's certainly ok to keep all your capture puppeted during peace time. But there are occasions, when it will help to unpuppet cities. Even if they're set just to 'default' focus because generally, default focus will allow cities to produce more food/ grow faster and actually produces more hammers, which helps the multiplier buildings go up faster.

There's also the extra-ordinary circumstances where total war is at hand and they need to crank out more units but they've lost a bunch of cities. There's no point sitting on 10-20thousand gold and a rich puppet empire. So I'll even go against my OP and say there should be a strategy where in total war (critical) situations where they will unpuppet cities to get units out when their core cities are attacked and or have already fallen. (but again, I've used vague wording like 'core cities' -which the AI will not understand) so we'll need the AI to flag certain cities are critical production cities that will need to be replaced if possible, when they are lost.

This may also indirectly help them target the human's productive 'core' cities. The AI doesn't discriminate and will usually nuke puppets when there's a war, because it's closest to their borders and presumably where airforces, units are massed. whereas a human player may take the trouble to send a carrier around back and nuke their core cities even if there's no immediate military gain for doing so.
 
Sorry for bumping, don't thing this deserves another thread, but I think it deserves some attention. From my first Gods and Kings game.


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This is a little disappointing. AI will still be crippled if you take out their core if they can;t unpuppet their capital and other cities.
 
Sorry for bumping, don't thing this deserves another thread, but I think it deserves some attention. From my first Gods and Kings game.

This is a little disappointing. AI will still be crippled if you take out their core if they can;t unpuppet their capital and other cities.

yeah, the AI should be annexing more often. At the very least their new capital.
 
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