AI unit cheat on Deity - Proof!

[sumthinelse]

Originally posted by Qitai

To give the system the benefit of doubt, I would suspect that all production resolution happens before the players turn as palehorse76 mention. To check for further indication of that, check pop or gold that AI has. These are possible if there is no resistor, which can happen.

Assuming that the AI gets it units produced after it attacks (quite an advantage if that were true IMO):

The Greeks have a republic before and after taking the city so they would have to pay for an extra unit. Before the city was taken the Greeks had 50 gold and they got 81 (unless Killer spent something) for taking the city. I don't think that's enough to buy a hoplite (maybe AI gets a special rate ???? ), but they might have some income (they couln't trade because there aren't any other civs). I created an embassy in Athens but for some reason the game won't let me spy on the city ????? Killer, did you change espionage in the editor?

Maybe I can hack the saved file and see if I can tell how much money they have in the 3rd saved game (after the magic unit appears)....

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Originally posted by sumthinelse
I created an embassy in Athens but for some reason the game won't let me spy on the city ????? Killer, did you change espionage in the editor?

Did you try to spy before they declared war? Afterwards, you can't AFAIK. I didn't change anything......

I get real curious now: is it again the old Civ2 thing where if the human built mahattan Projekt he'd get nuked the same turn? Or is it a deus ex machina thing?

 

[sumthinelse]

Originally posted by Lt. 'Killer' M.


Did you try to spy before they declared war? Afterwards, you can't AFAIK. I didn't change anything......

Maybe I'm confused but I know I have looked at enemy cities during war. I thought all I needed was an embassy. Maybe it's only if you build the wonder...

 

[Qitai]

That's enough to buy a hoplite. They have 60% of the actual cost on deity which is 12 shield. That means 96gc is need to buy a hoplite (I hope I got the numbers correct).

Yes, please check the sav game if possible. That would give us a good indication if they did spend $$ on the hoplite.

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

How big is the penalty for buying from scratch? I now it is prohibitvely high when you pop-rush.......

 

[Qitai]

2 times the normal cost if I remember correctly.

 

[Zachriel]

We could use the turn before. Where did the hoplite and sword come from? Could they have come on a different ship?

(You know, I think I read something on the forums long ago that the AI got an extra defender.)

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Zach: they came from that one ship. Sorry, no save of that turn, but I swear only one ship moved along my coast

 

[Hurricane]

Originally posted by sumthinelse
On what difficulty level? Killer was playing deity level.

Emperor. But I don´t think difficulty has a difference in this case, as Killer saw the same thing on Regent, too.

I´m tending to support the idea that all civs build the same time, just before the human´s turn. As it seems possible that they could afford to rush-buy the hoplite, the only problem is how they got it so fast.

Just so we don´t overlook anything. Killer: you didn´t change the rules of drafting so that Greece could have drafted the Hoplite?

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

nope, no change

 

[sumthinelse]

I think the AI gets its new units before the human moves again!!!

OK, I think the AI did buy the hoplite (sorry I was wrong about the cost). Here is how I did the research:

First I squandered most of Killer's treasury by rushing a bunch of city improvements until his treasury was between 100 and 200 (sorry Killer ). Then I moved the defender out of Ulundi and ended the turn. He had only 50 gold before that and got only 3 for taking the city, for a grand total of 53 gold, not enough....

Sure enough, there was no extra defender in the city on the next turn because the sumbich couldn't afford it!

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

sumthinelse, what would we all do without you???????

 

[Dralix]

Originally posted by sumthinelse
I think the AI gets its new units on the same turn it rushes them!!!

I think this has been the case since at least Civ 2 if not earlier. I would also say "before the human player's turn" instead of "on the same turn." I don't think the AI can move that unit the turn it is rushed. They just appear before you play your turn.

But, the human player can do something similar. As your turn begins, zoom to a city the first time you have the opportunity. Then use the arrow keys to move to the next city. Now you can rush whatever you like and it will be available immediately (as long as that city hasn't had production resolved yet.) Further, if you upgrade a unit that still has movement points in this manner, the upgraded unit will be availbale immediately.

So maybe there is no cheating, or advantage, or different rules in play here at all.

 

[Qitai]

Great work, sumthinelse!

I am feeling better now =)

Dralix, there still is cheating since we cannot capture a city and produce a unit before the AI gets a chance to attack.

But this is a very minor advantage (to me at least).

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Originally posted by Dralix

I don't think the AI can move that unit the turn it is rushed.

I +think* the Hoplite was fortified (=moved), but I'll have to check that

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Lt. 'Killer' M.
Zach: they came from that one ship. Sorry, no save of that turn, but I swear only one ship moved along my coast

Your veracity has never been in question.

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Originally posted by Zachriel


Your veracity has never been in question.

thanx! I meant I did look out for ships, it's not like I *think* it was one, but I *know* for sure, that's what i meant

 

[sumthinelse]

Dralix, I didn't mean to steal your user icon, sorry

Originally posted by Dralix


I think this has been the case since at least Civ 2 if not earlier. I would also say "before the human player's turn" instead of "on the same turn." I don't think the AI can move that unit the turn it is rushed. They just appear before you play your turn.

But, the human player can do something similar. As your turn begins, zoom to a city the first time you have the opportunity. Then use the arrow keys to move to the next city. Now you can rush whatever you like and it will be available immediately (as long as that city hasn't had production resolved yet.) Further, if you upgrade a unit that still has movement points in this manner, the upgraded unit will be availbale immediately.

So maybe there is no cheating, or advantage, or different rules in play here at all.

You are telling me I can capture a city, rush produce an extra defending unit in that city immediately, and it will appear before the AI moves? I don't think so! Did you really read what happened here?

1) AI captures city

2) AI produces new defender in the city before human moves

3) Human moves but has to attack an extra defender.

Compare what happens when a human is producing a defending unit with one turn left to produce it. That unit will not be available for defense when the AI moves.

This is an advantage for the AI that the human player does not have. At least I don't know how to do what the AI did. That's why Killer knew something was wrong: because a human player cannot do that!

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

sumthinelse: the way I understand dralix he said the AI could do that in Civ2. And IIRC I once or twice got nuked by the AI the very turn they could produce nukes, so they could rush instantly...

 

[Dralix]

Originally posted by sumthinelse


You are telling me I can capture a city, rush produce an extra defending unit in that city immediately, and it will appear before the AI moves? I don't think so! Did you really read what happened here?

Yes, I did read what happened here. All three pages worth, but evidently I wasn't clear on the timeline of events when I posted that. A point that Qitai was nice enough to point out to me.