AI unit cheat on Deity - Proof!

[cracker]

I do not think it is that the AI is cheating as you percieve, It has to do with the sequence of movement cycles.

The Production cycle occurs early in the turn, then the human moves its units, then the AI moves its units, (technically the turn ends about here) then another production cycle occurs, and then the human moves again.

I have studied this closely in the past and I believe it is a matter of time perspective. The AI appears to get its units all in the same turn because in actuallity the movement part of the AI turn occurs at after the human movement turn. The production part of the AI turns occurs after the production part of the human turn but this is early in the turn before the human moves.

If you watch the date label closely in the title status box in the lower right hand corner, you will see that the AI captures the city in one year and the pop drops from 4 to 3 in that year. Then things move continuously right on into the beginning of the next turn/year and the pop drops from 3 to 2 or the gets the benefit of the cash rush.

This is not out of turn or cheating it just reflects our need to understand that the AI gets to move after the Human player as a part of how the turn ends. The AI moves are not part of the next turn and the turn does not end when the human finishes their moves.

The turn also does not begin with the human player's moves. The production cycle for ALL civs occurs before the Human player or any other civs get to move.

It took me a while to realize this because rushing walls or another defender never produced the result in time to help with a pending attack. This is because the barbs and other civs still get to move after the human player moves. This isn't cheating, the other teams just have not had their movement turns yet and the production cycle for everyone occurs before we get our next movement cycle.

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Originally posted by Dralix


Yes, I did read what happened here. All three pages worth, but evidently I wasn't clear on the timeline of events when I posted that. A point that Qitai was nice enough to point out to me.

clear on the timeline or not, you are right! it was there in civ2. The problem here is the Ai can do it, while we can only do it when we are very lucky and a city is done producing before the one in question is at bat.

 

[sumthinelse]

Originally posted by Qitai


I am feeling better now =)

Me too Qitai. Now that we see it clearly it doesn't look so horrible. All computer problems are easy if you know the answer.

I think we are all looking at the same picture now....

 

[Dralix]

Originally posted by Lt. 'Killer' M.
The problem here is the Ai can do it, while we can only do it when we are very lucky and a city is done producing before the one in question is at bat.

The easiest way the human player can take advantage of this is when gaining a new tech, like the nuking you describe from Civ2.

When you gain a new tech, don't select your next research project from the choice box. Instead, go to your science advisor display. Then click the domestic advisor, and from there you can cycle through all your cities and rush or upgrade as you see fit.

 

[sumthinelse]

Originally posted by Lt. 'Killer' M.

we can only do it when we are very lucky and a city is done producing before the one in question is at bat.

???

We only get finished new units after the AI moves. I don't think we get to fiddle with the city production screens until after the AI finishes attacking. Isn't that true?

"when we are very lucky..."

I don't understand this. Do human units ever get produced before the AI moves?

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

@ cracker: now this sin't how ti is described! i always understood it was : your turn: cities, your turn: moves next players cities, next players move and so on!

If the AI can always produce after me, then move (the Hoplite WAS fortified, i belive).... then it is really not level! I want to go last in that case! After all the AI!


@ sumthinelse: I tried the following: I waited until i got a new tech. Then, with the first production po-up, I wnet through all cities and upgraded every unit. Then, I closed the city window - and all the units were upgraded but could move. Same for changing rproduction at that point.

However, as you correctly point out, this would be after the AI attacks (my mistake above)

 

[Qitai]

I am not sure if I interpret Dralix right cos I have never done this before. But I think this is what he is saying

You can say, discover chivary and produce a knight on the same turn by zooming to city when you are given the option, use the arrow key to go to a city in which it has not been cycled and rush that on that same turn and you produce (not upgrade) a knight on the same turn that chivary is discovered.

Dralix> Am I interpreting it correctly? I have not tried this yet. Hmm... looks like I can switch to bank from university (without lossing shield since one more turn later means a waste of 20+ shields) in my latest game when the tech is out.

 

[sumthinelse]

Is there a Devil's Advocate for the AI here, to claim that the human can gain an advantage by having the first move after production?

 

[Dralix]

Originally posted by Qitai
You can say, discover chivary and produce a knight on the same turn by zooming to city when you are given the option, use the arrow key to go to a city in which it has not been cycled and rush that on that same turn and you produce (not upgrade) a knight on the same turn that chivary is discovered.

Dralix> Am I interpreting it correctly? I have not tried this yet.

You are interpreting correctly.

You can do this on any turn when a city builds something and prompts you for what to build next. Or, when you research a new tech, you can hit all your cities by asking your science advisor to show you "the whole picture" and then talking to your domestic advisor. Commerce is resolved before production. Then you can rush build knights and they will be available to you immediately. Or, you can upgrade a horseman to a knight and as long as it still had movement points left before you ended your turn (use fortify or sentry instead of space bar) it will also be available immediately.

 

[sumthinelse]

Originally posted by cracker


The Production cycle occurs early in the turn, then the human moves its units, then the AI moves its units, (technically the turn ends about here) then another production cycle occurs, and then the human moves again.

Makes sense. We just didn't know how it worked. :enlighten

 

[Qitai]

Good, learning new things whenever there is this type of discussion =)

Sigh, if only I knew this earlier. I timed my pre-build library 1 turn earlier and got excess shield and build a colosuem instead to avoid shield waste. Should have known the above and got my library instead.

 

[cracker]

Lt. Killer M,

You are sort of changing subjects in mid stream by raising the issue of the Manhattan Project and instant nukes in this thread.

That is a different topic but is a fairly well documented game design brain cramp where the game designers have just made a mistake in implementing their intent.

When you are in a nuclear arms race with other civs to see who can build the Manhattan Project first, then it is in your best interest to aim to come in second, third or fourth in the race. The first place player to get to the Manhattan Project gets to have the Manhattan Project (whoop de dee). The second, third, fourth and so on place civs cannot complete the Mahattan porject because it is no longer available, so they switch their production to next most expensive unit or improvement on their list and that is usually an ICBM or tactical nuke which gets almost instantly completed.

So there you have it, the runner up trophies for losing the race to build the Manhattan project will be nuclear missles while the grand prize is a brownie pin.

Firaxis should fix this by engineering a time delay of a turn or two for the other civs that did not get the Manhattan project or by creating an fairly cheap improvement or small wonder that every civ would have to build before making Nuclear Weapons. This improvement or small wonder would only be available to be built after the Manhattan project. The Manhattan project would confer the same benefits as the improvement or small wonder.

To make a long story short, this isn't any evidence or indication of a cheat, it just reflects a little bit of brain damage in the driver's seat.

 

[Zouave]

Originally posted by cracker
. . .To make a long story short, this isn't any evidence or indication of a cheat, it just reflects a little bit of brain damage in the driver's seat.

So, Firaxis programming brain cramps continue to be discovered. . .

The biggest omission with nukes is no Quick Response to a First Strike. I long ago turned the MP into the Internet commerce-producing Wonder as I will never play with nukes without that realistic Quick Response. The idea we have to wait until next turn to respond - after all the enemy nukes hit - is absurd. And it should have been corrected after Civ 2.; we discussed it enough on the forums for five years.

I guess that's not another AI cheat, just a programming failure.

 

[Evie]

Not a programing failure (the creation of a new unit), just a reasonable way to play the game. Sure, it could go "Player build phase, player move phase, AI build phase, AI move phase". But Civ III is hardly the only game to include a "Everyone build phase, Player move phase, AI move phase" system.

Sure the way it is set give an edge to the AI, but it isn't even a matter of having the AI play under different rules as the humans - it's about the fact that the rules gives a slight - in some matters - advantage to the AI.

Sure, they can get a defender before the counter-attack, but on the other hand, if all players produce their first nuke on the same turn, you get to fire yours first. Similarly, you get to kill these newly built units (if you can) before they get to move or attack in any way.

It balances out, wheter or not you like it Zouave.

 

[sumthinelse]

Originally posted by Oda Nobunaga
if all players produce their first nuke on the same turn, you get to fire yours first. Similarly, you get to kill these newly built units (if you can) before they get to move or attack in any way.

Good point. Of course, it's not necessarily easy to take a city with ground units in one turn.

I suppose on a tiny world where a nearby AI civ discovered motorized transport on the same turn you did, the human could launch a devastating attack because you got to move your tanks first.

You see, I'm trying to find the "Devil's Advocate" voice for the game implementation in which the AI moves last. Well, if it's easier to program such that all production gets done at one time, then somebody has to move last.

What if the human moved last? Few of us would notice this "unfairness" to the AI. I would like to have an optional "AI debug mode" so I could see everything the AI was doing, not to cheat, but just see what the world looked like through the AI's "eyes."

I agree with the other guys that nuclear weapons need to be rethought and the game changed though.

 

[Hurricane]

I know this is becoming off-topic, but I have always suspected that the order of civs affects tech research. Consider we have 4 civs: the human, Babs, Indians and England. They move in this order. All research Metallurgy, with the human player 1 round from it, Babs 2, Indians 3 and England 4 rounds from it.

Round 1: The human discovers metallurgy and finishes production. The round moves on to the babs´ production phase. The cost for metallurgy has now dropped to 1/2, which means the babs get it, too! When we continue on to the Indians, the cost is now only 1/3, which means they get it, too. And of course, England gets it as well.

When the human player starts it movement phase, all players have Metallurgy.

I have often seen this, that you discover a tech you just have checked that nobody has, and when you go the trade advisor, some civs suddenly have it!

 

[Masquerouge]

Excuse-me for asking a silly question but..; Does research really works that way ? Researches discovered are easier for the other civ to find ?

Cos if it is, trying to stay number 1 in science is a bad idea, then... I get the impression that the best science strategy is really to put your science rate to zero buy all the techs you need, and have huge money left to build your units and such...

 

[sumthinelse]

Originally posted by Masquerouge
I get the impression that the best science strategy is really to put your science rate to zero buy all the techs you need, and have huge money left to build your units and such...

Yes, techs that others have discovered are cheaper than new ones. There is a formula for how much they cost somewhere....

A lot of people like to play that way, and it has its advantages.

However, I think having a tech lead also has its plusses in the long run. For example, if you have a dominating tech lead, you don't need as many military units (and don't have to worry about being attacked very much), you can sell old techs to the AI. If you beat the others to navigation and there are other civs to be discovered, you can sell maps and communications and make money for quite a while.

There is probably a 3rd way to play. You would concentrate on key techs that are must-haves for your game plan. I don't think amphibious warfare and advanced flight are worth a **** but some people might love 'em.

 

[Qitai]

Here is the formula for research,

Research Cost = Tech Base Cost * Map size factor * (K-N)/K
where
Tech Base Cost and Map size factor can be found int he editor.
K = Number of Civ in the game
N = Number of Civ that you have contact with that have that tech

Trade cost seems to be different.
My data so far show that the tech cost about 80% of research cost when it is known by only one civ. Drops to 45% when 2 civ knows it and then gradually drop until about 25%.

I have put in some guides on tech research/trade here
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24137
You may want to take a look at it.

 

[Bill_in_PDX]

Originally posted by sumthinelse

There is probably a 3rd way to play. You would concentrate on key techs that are must-haves for your game plan. I don't think amphibious warfare and advanced flight are worth a **** but some people might love 'em.

This is the strategy I use. I drive for the techs that give Adam Smith and Hoover Dam. Then I find most of the other techs in Republic or Democracy are relatively fast to research, if not buy.

Bill