AI unit cheat on Deity - Proof!

[Loopy]

Originally posted by Masquerouge
Excuse-me for asking a silly question but..; Does research really works that way ? Researches discovered are easier for the other civ to find ?

Yes. The player completes their research first, then the AI completes their research. If you're the first to figure out a tech, all other civs get the benefit of your knowing it before their research phase completes. The AI also gets a chance to trade techs immediately after their research phase finishes too.

I wish Firaxis would just tell us the exact turn order for all phases. It'd clear up so much and might get people to see it as "game design" instead of "cheats".

 

[Evincar]

Anyway, even if we agree that the Hoplite was rushed rather than created from thin air, I think it's still cheating.

You can't rush production when your cities are in resistance. So, what's up with the AI? Maybe they can, or they are so lovely and charismatic that their conquered cities don't resist :crazyeyes:? Because, AFAIK, it's impossible to capture a size 4 cities w/o resisters, even when my culture is 3x or 4x theirs and the cities had 0 culture

 

[Bill_in_PDX]

Actually it is possible, and is likely in this case, as the City in question had been captured from another Civ already.

I find quite often that if I liberate a city previously captured from me, or someone else, within a reasonable amount of time, quite often there is no resistance up to about size 6.

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Originally posted by Bill_in_PDX
if I liberate a city previously captured from me, or someone else, within a reasonable amount of time, quite often there is no resistance up to about size 6.

from you: sure there's resistance, which ends right away. But from another civ: the other civ isn't anymore, and there was no resistance left! The citizens are all mine!

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

It is a cheat!!!!!!!


Here's the deal: A city flips away from me, I attack it the next turn with 2 Modern Armour that both win against the defending Riflemen - and there is another!!!!!!! A third defender!!!! NO way he was moved in; the place is isolated by 25 sqaures of my territory in all directions!!!! Not landed on the coast and moved in since that would take two turns! NO airport either; there wasn't even one when I originally took the city!

So here it is:

The Fu*king AI gets units from thin air!!!!!


sadly, seed is off for this game, so I don't know if I can reproduce it...

just checked it - I can't! It didn't flip this time

 

[Evincar]

Ok. C'mon, relax.

Well, maybe there were some units strolling in your territory you just didn't see...mmm sounds rare, not, probably not but...

Was the third rifleman a conscript??? It is posible to get one from fliping, one for rushing (at a prohibitive cost, I know) and a third one drafting. Well, if it was not a conscript...maybe the AI gets regulars from draft in Deity ?? That would be HUGE cheating of course...

Hey!! Maybe they used an helicopter to move it! it could came from a carrier and drop the rifleman there...

STOP A MINUTE!!!!

Now thay I realize...FLIPPINGS TAKE PLACE DURING THE CONSTRUCTION PHASE DON'T THEY??? So, the AI can't rush anything in a flipped city!!! aaaaaaaaaargh, then the third and even the second defender is cheating!! :aargh3: :aargh3: :aargh3:

SOMEBODY PLEASE EXPLAIN THIS!!!!!!!!

Edited 2 minutes after posting

Good Lord, the AI can not even MOVE, an existing Rifleman there.!!!! They can not even DRAFT it!!! My bad, this is going to make me :suicide: :suicide: :suicide:

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Evincar: no, noone wandering, no helicopter (too far), but yes, conscript. Only number three. So you may be on to something there.......

 

[Evincar]

SO IT IS CHEATING AFTER ALL. AND NOT ONLY ONE UNIT BUT TWO!! I HATE THE AI!!

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

WEll Evincar, maybe we just don't understand how the game runs...

let's see: what if it is like this: Human welath/science turn, human production turn (with flips), AI science/wealth turn (so they get tech cheaper because of the effort you made!!!!), AI production turn with rushing and buying; all AI actions completed immeadiately!

That would explain it!

Firaxis: is it like that?????? Or does the AI get free units??????

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

what if???? Just a stupid idea, but what if the flip is happening instantly for the AI, that is the AI decides what to do with the city uring the humans production turn, thus it can rush/draft. Then, the city does a production turn for the AI (which it doesn't do for the human if the other way round). Then, the three defenders really stem from: 1 free for flip, 1 draft, 1 rush!

 

[Zouave]

Originally posted by Lt. 'Killer' M.
WEll Evincar, maybe we just don't understand how the game runs...

let's see: what if it is like this: Human welath/science turn, human production turn (with flips), AI science/wealth turn (so they get tech cheaper because of the effort you made!!!!), AI production turn with rushing and buying; all AI actions completed immeadiately!

That would explain it!

Firaxis: is it like that?????? Or does the AI get free units??????

I've long been convinced the AI gets freebie settlers and maybe military too as soon as I raze a city and open up some tiles.

I think it somehow also finds it easier to build settlers as part of their settler Diarrhea; there is no way they could keep up with me in Science and treasury with all those settlers being built.

 

[Zouave]

Originally posted by Lt. 'Killer' M.
It is a cheat!!!!!!!

The Fu*king AI gets units from thin air!!!!!

Yes, we all know it now.

I've been suggesting that for many months.

 

[sumthinelse]

Originally posted by Lt. 'Killer' M.



Here's the deal: A city flips away from me, I attack it the next turn with 2 Modern Armour that both win against the defending Riflemen - and there is another!!!!!!! A third defender!!!! NO way he was moved in; the place is isolated by 25 sqaures of my territory in all directions!!!! Not landed on the coast and moved in since that would take two turns! NO airport either; there wasn't even one when I originally took the city!

Killer, please post anyway. I will see if I can recreate. If you can't post it, please tell me what difficulty level.

You know, we have been wrong about cheats before.

Mike B., how is this supposed to work?

Killer, do you realize you have more posts than Zoave and me together?

 

[sumthinelse]

OK, I intentionally put a city where it would tend to flip, next to the AI palace and pretty far away from my palace. It flipped but it had only one unit after the flip (tried regent and deity level).

I think the 3 units in your game come from:

• 
  
  * the free unit everybody gets, even the human, after a flip
  
  * drafting one citizen for the 2nd one (you saw a conscript). Of course the AI gets to move before you do, and drafts take effect immediately (even for the human).
  
  * the production happens after the human's turn, so it paid for, or rushed, the 3rd one.
  

What's the problem? I don't see how this is a cheat, if you accept the fact that the AI gets to move last (before everybody's units are produced). Remember, we found out that after the AI moves, all units (except for draftees which appear immediately), human and AI, get produced.

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

sumthinelse: yep I realize

as for the 'cheat' bit: the way it is organized the city can produce within 1 turn, as we (you!) found before. This means an unfair advantage for the AI, because it will always encounter less defenders in situations where there can only be few. It is a 200% increase from 1 to 3, and so decidedly tougher to beat, but a human would still be at 1 defender!

I call it a cheat, especially because not the city also flips 'right away', while when a city flips to me, it will flip 'for the next turn'! It is not a cheat, but a 'cheat', I agree to that, but it still gives an advantage to the AI we weren't told about that makes the game run a lot differently from what I thought it did.

I will post the game, if I still have it and you really want it - loading takes almost 3 minutes, and the turn takes around 20!!!

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Sorry, I don't have it anymore.... tried to recreate, didn't work in 5 tries (which took over an hour!), then later saved over it my mistake!

 

[sumthinelse]

Apparently the culture flip occurs after the human move and before the AI move.

What happens when an AI city flips to the human?

The human gets to draft, and move units into the city but can't produce units before the AI moves .

So that is arguably unfair, but it's the same advantage the AI gets when it takes a city by force.

It's not "AI units out of thin air," it's just the weird sequence where the the flips occur after the human move, and the AI gets to move last, before the production sequence.

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Originally posted by sumthinelse
Apparently the culture flip occurs after the human move and before the AI move.

What happens when an AI city flips to the human?

The human gets to draft, and move units into the city but can't produce units before the AI moves .

So that is arguably unfair, but it's the same advantage the AI gets when it takes a city by force.

It's not "AI units out of thin air," it's just the weird sequence where the the flips occur after the human move, and the AI gets to move last, before the production sequence.

Yep you're right, but I'm still angry!

 

[sumthinelse]

Here is the way I look at it. There are 2 kinds of undocumented AI advantages: the intentional, designed (aka "sneaky") ones , and the unintentional (aka "innocent") ones. I think this is the second kind. I don't think Firaxis thought of this as an AI advantage, but it is.

Somebody has to move last. If the human moved last, that would be unfair, right?

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

well, why not have it randomised, every civ has prod, then move, then comes the next civ. human place is determined randomly. how else do they want to do MP?????