Air superiority - do fighters ever dogfight?

[Windwalker]

From what I've read about how the game is supposed to work, fighter jets are supposed to attempt to maintain air superiority at a range of half their bombard range. But even when I station a fighter-filled carrier next to a coastal enemy town, my fighters never fight the enemy fighters, and my bombers keep getting shot down when they try to bomb one square away. Shouldn't my fighters be trying to establish air superiority? Shouldn't they be fighting the enemy fighters only one square away?

Is this just a bug, or were fighters never meant to fight each other? If that is so, then that do be a strange design decision...

- Windwalker

 

[jorge_roberto]

This is a bug corrected by patch 1.16f.

Jorge

 

[Marzipan]

I think the short answer to your question is "no". I believe the air superiority mission only will put the fighters on alert to intercept aircraft attempting to bomb your assets, but I don't think they will try to intercept a fighter that is trying to intercept your bomber. This would be a good mission to add for fighters though. It could be called "escort" or "combat air patrol (CAP)". Has anyone ever seen a fighter intercepting a fighter trying to intercept a bomber?

 

[Ackrite99]

The best way to conduct a cap of a certain area within the bounds of game capabilities is to send your fighters themselves on bombing missions. When interecpted by enemy bombers, they have a greater chance of shooting them down in the ensuing engagement, and perhaps suceeding in their mission too.

 

[Amask]

But fighter don't bomb very well. I had 3 jet fighters and lost 8 turns trying to bomb one square. I'll try this 1.16 patch

 

[Allemand]

The strategy would be to send jet fighters on the first bombing runs. They would engage any AI fighters on air superiority missions. Your bombers would go in after this and should not encounter any fighters.

The fighters wouldn't do much damage as bombers, but they should be able to destroy the enemy fighters or at least force them to use their move.

 

[Marzipan]

. . . humm come to think of it, the "air superiority" mission is really misnamed for what it actually does. It should be called "defensive counter air" mission or "intercept" mission maybe.

 

[Windwalker]

Originally posted by Allemand
The strategy would be to send jet fighters on the first bombing runs. They would engage any AI fighters on air superiority missions. Your bombers would go in after this and should not encounter any fighters.

The fighters wouldn't do much damage as bombers, but they should be able to destroy the enemy fighters or at least force them to use their move.

Ah I see... That's not a very logical way of handling fighters, though. They should be allowed to try to take over enemy airspace specifically (i.e. hunt for enemy fighters), and have a 100% chance of encountering any enemy fighters that are on the default air superiority mission.

- Windwalker

 

[SKILORD]

where is that patch?

 

[Franklyn]

the patch should be in the downloads section of this BB. or head on over to the Civ 3 site.

 

[Reddneckrebel]

Dog fights should occur whenever two enemy fighters are instructed to perform air superiority where one or more squares of their operational range is conflicting. Do you all agree with this? If the game does not function lik this, it would be a good idea for the new patch...

 

[CrazyScientist]

Cool idea for preemptive strikes against fighters. Can't wait to try it.

I have a question about stealth fighters though. What the hell is the point of them? They need all the same resources and tech as stealth bombers, but they are worse in every way. They can't conduct superiority missions, so why build them. Does anyone use them for anything? Can they do something stealth bombers can't do that I don't know about?

 

[zzcczz]

Originally posted by DamnCommie
I have a question about stealth fighters though. What the hell is the point of them?

The point is that they are quicker and cheaper to build, but other than that, it's a mute point. Bomber are superior in every way, and the price difference isn't really all that much of an incentive to build them. Personally, I don't even bother building them because of this, so it's a shame that such a neat-looking unit goes to waste .

 

[Marzipan]

This thread definately brings out some areas where there is room for improvement in the air combat side of the game.

The intercept probability in the stock rules is too low, IMHO. I've bumped it up to 75% chance in my rules. If an interceptor is operating in an area where a bomber is attacking, it should have a good chance of intercepting the bomber. Maybe it should even be higher than 75%.

It's ok that stealth fighters don't have an air superiority mission. They are not air superiority fighters. The chance of intercept for these should be like 5% (I think that's what it is in the stock rules).

Precision strike capability should be possible without stealth fighters. This should be a separate capability that modern jet fighters should be able to have.

I like the idea that opposing fighters with overlapping areas of air superiority missions would automatically fight it out every turn until one side has attained air superiority in the area. This should also include SAM sites. If an air superiorty mission overlaps a SAM operating area, they should automatically fight it out every turn until one of the other is gone.

With these changes in place, air combat in civ 3 would go somthing like this:

Before you attempt to attain air superiorty or do a bombing raid, you first send in your best precision strike assets to take out any SAM sites in the operating area.

Once these are gone, you put your best fighters on air superiority missions in the area.

Once they have attained air superiorty, you then commence with your bombing raids using your best bombers.

Sounds remarkably like the real world

 

[Windwalker]

Hey Marzipan, write Firaxis with your ideas, please! Hehe, it's so much more intuitive and gives you more options than what we have now...

- Windwalker

 

[MikeV]

Originally posted by Marzipan
. . . humm come to think of it, the "air superiority" mission is really misnamed for what it actually does. It should be called "defensive counter air" mission or "intercept" mission maybe.

The button is "air (s)uperiority," while the same feature in the civ3edit Units page / Air Missions is "Interception." Looks like they changed the name, updated one place but not the other. (A little inconsistency bug )

I agree both names don't convey how it actually works. The closest I can think of would be CAP (Combat Air Patrol), and only over their current base area.

It would be cool to have a designated area CAP, like the present (r)econ function. But this would be a code change (although a slight one: just have a % chance of air-to-air combat if the recon is over an enemy air unit's base. Sure would make those recce flights more exciting! )

 

[MikeV]

Originally posted by Marzipan
Precision strike capability should be possible without stealth fighters. This should be a separate capability that modern jet fighters should be able to have.

It's given to the American UU, the F-15. You can add it via civ3edit in the "Unit Abilities" list (lower left-hand corner on the Units page.

 

[MikeV]

Originally posted by Ackrite99
The best way to conduct a cap of a certain area within the bounds of game capabilities is to send your fighters themselves on bombing missions. When interecpted by enemy bombers, they have a greater chance of shooting them down in the ensuing engagement, and perhaps suceeding in their mission too.

I agree that the mechanics of having your fighter (b)omb a target to instigate air-to-air is (very!) un-intuitive. A little too frugal on the UI design there!

I've only observed one of three outcomes on a fighter "bombing" run:
- bombing run failed
- target damage similar to other (b)ombard
- one of the two air units is shot down (the other takes heavy damage, but sometimes turns Elite)

I've never seen a non-fighter unit climb to engage.

 

[MikeV]

Originally posted by DamnCommie
I have a question about stealth fighters though. What the hell is the point of them? They need all the same resources and tech as stealth bombers, but they are worse in every way. They can't conduct superiority missions, so why build them. Does anyone use them for anything? Can they do something stealth bombers can't do that I don't know about?

They can perform a (r)econ mission, at longer range that either a Fighter or Jet Fighter. That's about it.

 

[Windwalker]

Originally posted by MikeV


They can perform a (r)econ mission, at longer range that either a Fighter or Jet Fighter. That's about it.

LOL, that's pretty sad, if that's the only thing to recommend it over a stealth bomber or normal fighter... You should at least get culture points for building such a cool-looking and inefficient unit!

- Windwalker