Aircraft: A new paradigm

Stalker0

Baller Magnus
Joined
Dec 31, 2005
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Anyone who has heard me talk on these forums knows I've never been fully happy with air units and the current interception system. You can see my thread here where I discussed possible changes to the interception concept: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/interception-new-air-defense-only-concept-draft-1.684714/


I've been thinking about it a lot, and I believe the problem lies in the fighter. At its core, the aircraft game is setup as this exceptionally passive type system. Fighters have to give up their attacks to go into interception mode....whose entire purpose is to ensure another aircraft unit is also forced to not attack. So we have this concept whose main goal is to have two units sitting around doing nothing. We then get into the air sweep cat and mouse, where you have to have enough air sweeps to get through every interception before you can hope to actually use your aircraft for real, and then the next turn you have to do it again.... and again. It can feel fun and a little strategic once or twice, but very quickly just collapses into tedium.

What we need is an aircraft system that rewards PROACTIVE play, rather than reactive. And I think I have the way to do it.

First Up, we make several key changes to the Fighter Line of units.

1) Fighter Interception: Always on (like every other intercepting unit)
2) Gains Promotion "Dogged Pursuit": Attack is not stopped when the unit is intercepted.
3) Air sweep is removed. Gains Promotion "Air Sweep": An attack that is not intercepted does 5 damage to all adjacent air and intercepting units (aka the same as how air sweep works today, but now its just a part of the regular attack).

So this does a number of key things. First, fighters want to ATTACK. They no longer have to sit there to provide interception protection. They want to go and fight things! When a fighter attacks now, an enemy fighter might intercept them, both dealing damage to each other. But the fighter's attack still goes through (meaning they also take damage from air defense). So a fighter can get beat up attacking, but at least its attacking! Its doing things, not just sitting there.

But on the flip side, when the enemy comes to attack you, your fighters will intercept, so you better be careful! You may need to swap out damaged fighters into other cities, or bring in anti-air guns to take over the interception burden while your fighters heal. You can't just flip an interception switch on the fighter and let them become completely safe. The air game is dangerous!

Lastly, this makes soaking up interception actually an interesting part of the game. Forget the boring air sweeps, my fighters are barreling in, killing things and soaking interception at the same time. And if the enemy hasn't brought enough interception, well then that air sweep promotion still kicks in, and I can start knocking down intercepting and air units (just like it works today).

Second, we get rid of the randomness.

1) All intercepting units intercept at 100%.
2) Promos that increase interception are either removed or revamped to another purpose.
3) Interception priority is always: Unit Health, followed by unit interception CS.

While there are a lot of things in Civ that shouldn't be random, interception as especially is one of them. Its a silly balancing mechanic that isn't necessary in this new model. Now that our fighters are more active, its ok if there are AA guns around getting full interception. The fighters will do damage but take a good amount in return. AA guns will also be good defense to ensure their hurt fighters don't have to keep intercepting. With the priority note, you can spread out the interceptions to your healthy units to ensure your damaged fighters don't take too much more punishment.

And now to give bombers some fun.

Bombers gain "Carpet Bombing" promotion: Deals 20 splash damage to all adjacent units.

With the notion that fighters are more aggressive in attacking units, we want to ensure bombers have a good niche. After all they still have to wait for the interception to clear, so it can be tempting to just build all fighters. So towards that end we give bombers a good amount of splash damage, showcasing the raw area power of their big bombs. This is accurate with how bombers have historically been used in history against units, much more as a wide spread artillery shot than a precision attack. We still keep their city promotions if you want that city destroying bomber, but this ensures that bombers gain a unique power only reserved to artillery normally. While fighters can snipe key targets, bombers clear the field of opponents.



Now this model would require a thorough review of the air promotions, several would likely need to change in this model. But I wanted to start there to gauge people's thoughts, does this concept make sense, is there a terrible flaw I am not thinking about? Let me know!
 
My proposal for the entire air combat rework, with some of the ideas from discussions that took place here or Discord:

Interception and Fighter units

My idea is to completely remove the "X interception per turn" concept and make interception always present as long as it's within range. Each interception unit within range provides Interception Combat Strength (ICS) to the interception, each modified by promotions and unit health (Banzai isn't taking effect here) etc.. The sum of ICS is used to attack the intercepted unit, then the air strike goes through if the unit survives the interception.

Air Sweep's purpose is to directly weaken interception units through damaging them, as well as temporarily disabling them. This is done through the normal combat system, with the defender being the air sweeping fighter (which can have bonus CS when air sweeping) and the attacker being all interceptors on or adjacent to the target tile (again, using the sum of their ICS). Damage taken by the defender mass is divided between the interceptors. If the air sweeper survives, all interceptors affected are disabled until the start of the interceptor's next turn.

Anti-Air Gun and Mobile SAM will have a slightly weaker CS than the current version, but high ICS. There are also promotions to increase ICS and interception range. You can fill your land with interceptors to have a 100% airproof area (even destroying air sweepers) if you want to, but it'll be extremely weak to ground assault.

Fighter promotion line is redesigned to have one that increases air combat capability (ICS%, interception range, air sweep bonus CS%), and another that specializes on air strikes (attack CS%, air strike range, % against specific unitcombat/domain).

Fighters need to take the interception promotion (first promotion in the air combat line) to be capable of intercepting. Fighters always intercept even if they have moved this turn if they have the interception promotion, like land-based anti-air units. They're still used to open the path for bombers like now, but can also do their other job of interception at the same time.

Fighters will only have 3 base interception range, but that can be increased with promotions. You shouldn't have to worry about "hidden interceptors" as much.


Air Strike

Damage to the attacking unit is no longer a flat amount. Instead, the normal melee damage formula is used for both the air striking plane and the defender, except the attacker only takes 1/3 damage for being airborne and hard to hit. Some free and pickable promotions will give bonus CS when defending against air. Military Base loses the bonus flat damage against planes, but I'm not sure if it needs to provide any extra CS against air with the city's naturally high CS.


Bomber units (or whatever name we want to rename the line to)

Bombers also have two specialization promotion lines: anti-unit and anti-city (same as now).
The anti-unit line leads to a T4 promotion Carpet Bombing, which does damage to all enemy units adjacent to the air strike target as if being ranged attacked by 20% of the bomber's CS. Units inside cities and fortifications are not affected as usual.
The anti-city line leads to a T4 promotion Precision Bombing, which ignores the damage sharing ability of the garrison unit when attacking cities.
Air Logistics is removed but Air Repair is added as a T4 promotion.

Stealth Bomber (or whatever we rename it to)'s Stealth promotion is reworked to the following: Ignore 50% of land-based ICS (all ICS that's not from Fighters) when performing an Air Strike.

I'd make it ignore 100% (more realistic really), but that'd make Mobile SAM obsolete and is not good for the game.


Missiles

Removed, and functionality replaced by the following building:

Missile Silo
Available at Rocketry
Requires 1 Oil
Standard :c5production: Production cost
Standard :c5gold: Gold maintenance
+3 City Strike Range
+15% City Strike CS
City may attack enemy city tiles which directly hits garrison units
Changes city bombardment animation to the guided missile (I think someone made a parabolic animation for missiles)

Like the Mine Field, this is a specialized defense building that's entirely optional. It's basically the same as auto-producing a missile every turn, albeit much weaker and has a shorter range.


Nukes

Can now be intercepted in this model, but are given a high CS to endure interceptions. The attack goes through (and the unit is consumed) if it survives the interception, as usual.

Strategic Defense System gives the city a decent ICS to help counter both missiles and nukes, but not effective against planes. The %chance to completely block Atomic Bombs and downgrade Nuclear Missiles is dropped.

Cargo slots (for missiles) on non-carrier units are removed. Nuclear Missiles can only be stationed in and fired from cities, but gain a much longer range (maybe 24 :c5rangedstrength: ?)

Nukes have delayed detonation. A global notification is sent when a nuke is launched, and it's announced whether it survives the interception. If it does, it will detonate at the start of the owner's next turn.

The owner automatically declares war on a civ if and only if the nuke hits territory belonging to that civ at the time of launching. Hitting units no longer counts as an act of war as they have time to run away. However, you can no longer drop a nuke at neutral territory.
Launching a nuke still adds a global negative opinion modifier.


Carriers

Complementary change:
Carriers now gain +2 XP for each action (interception, air sweep or air strike) taken by a plane on board, but air sweeps and air strikes take 1 move from the carrier as well. They also cannot attack or intercept by themselves anymore (range and RCS removed).
Cargo promotions are changed to provide both +1 cargo and +1 move.

This change is to prevent playing carriers like skirmishers, i.e. move 3 tiles forward, fire all the planes, then move 3 tiles backward, as well as giving them a chance to gain XP.
 
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Interception

My idea is to completely remove the "X interception per turn" concept and make interception always present as long as it's within range. Each interception unit within range provides Interception Combat Strength (ICS) to the interception, each modified by promotions and unit health (Banzai isn't taking effect here) etc.. The sum of ICS is used to attack the intercepted unit, then the air strike goes through if the unit survives the interception.

Air Sweep's purpose is to directly weaken interception units through damaging them, as well as temporarily disabling them. This is done through the normal combat system, with the attacker being the air sweeping fighter (which can have bonus CS when air sweeping) and the defender being all interceptors on or adjacent to the target tile (again, using the sum of their ICS). (Note that this is swapped around - the air sweeper is the defender currently) Damage taken by the defender mass is divided between the interceptors. If the air sweeper survives, all interceptors affected are disabled until the start of the defender's next turn.
My concern here is it seems to easy to again hit a state where aircraft are 100% useless. Once you get to that critical threshold where any air sweep instantly kills the fighter, fighters become extremely weak.

Though on teh flip side you could get into a kamikazi situation. As long as your willing to sacrifice 1 fighter, they can air sweep a section and basically disable all air sweeps in the general region with 1 shot (dying in the process) but then the rest of your airforce can then attack with completely impunity. Almost a super guided missile.
 
Once you get to that critical threshold where any air sweep instantly kills the fighter, fighters become extremely weak.
At that threshold, the land will be so saturated with anti-air that it's really easy to invade with land units.

No, you can't disable air sweeps if your air sweeper doesn't survive.
 
@Stalker0 I really like both this and the missile idea! You will have my vote when you propose it. And no, I don't see any flaw in it. I would like to try it.
 
IMO if i can get a really early tech lead I always aim for aircraft because its a massive advantage over anything, once you get into the information age and the AI is level i don't bother with aircraft as the interceptions do too much damage without dealing any damage back.

i had a bunch of experience bombers and fighters on two aircraft carrier with flight deck promotions about 5 each i was up against 2 ai aircraft i found it annoying i caused little damage for 30 or so for interception i found I had to be rotating and then that had to be stopped as the damage the interceptions were greater than the damage I was dealing.

I like the above the stealth bomber cant be intercepted but i think if the city contained a AA as a fortification then i believe it could be hit but thats very niche

perhaps using an airbase feature for interceptions rather than city?
 
I'm more on board here than with the missiles... The air sweep gameplay has always struck me as tedious and unrealistic.

Fighters as a passive stat buff would make more sense to me than missiles do. The suggestion above re: an airbase improvement, perhaps with fighters having much more limited range for interceptions, this sounds interesting.

I've long been daydreaming about a flight and missile model that proceeds over several turns rather than instantaneously -- this would be most interesting for nukes, but could work for bombers and rockets too -- you send the attack on turn x but it actually hits on turn x+1 -- in the case of nukes we could create a better MAD model this way. You detect enemy launch, and launch retaliatory strike before everything is destroyed. Probably a nightmare for AI to figure out though.
 
you send the attack on turn x but it actually hits on turn x+1 -- in the case of nukes we could create a better MAD model this way. You detect enemy launch, and launch retaliatory strike before everything is destroyed. Probably a nightmare for AI to figure out though.
This is cool, but also antithematic. Nukes don't fly for several years to their destination. At least you could move your units then to avoid damage.
 
Nukes should definitely have delayed detonation. You can move your units, but your city is still hit (which favours the AI since they can only nuke cities and can't anticipate alpha strikes).
 
1) Fighter Interception: Always on (like every other intercepting unit)
But on the flip side, when the enemy comes to attack you, your fighters will intercept, so you better be careful! You may need to swap out damaged fighters into other cities, or bring in anti-air guns to take over the interception burden while your fighters heal. You can't just flip an interception switch on the fighter and let them become completely safe. The air game is dangerous!
Right now if you set an aircraft to intercept can you remind me, do they heal at the end of the turn or must you fully idle them for the turn? This strikes me as a fairly big defender buff if you are "always intercepting" therefore you can heal while intercepting as well. Maybe I'm not thinking about it correctly?

I would change: "1) Fighter Interception: Always on Activated after attacking". Also you would retain the Interception-only button in case you don't want to attack but still want to defend, without idling to heal.
I know there's consistency that other units are intercepting always, but I think aircraft are a special case for a reason.
 
Though Azum's and my ideas are very different in several notes, it seems we agree on the notion that "fighter interception should just be on", rather than something you turn on and off. So that's a starting point for a possible consensus.

Now we turn to Air sweeps. Azum's model maintains sweeps but makes them a lot more binary. I can either endure them (and switch them all off in 1 attack), or probably can't endure them and so all air attacks are shut down until the defending planes/AA guns are dealt with. I challenge Azum's notion that "if they are committing that much to AA, then they are ripe for a land invasion". I guess it comes down to just how much AA is needed to hit this "total shield" threshold? It is not difficult depending on city distance to have a city with 2-3 plane interceptors + 2-3 AA guns. And its not like the AA guns are right in the front, juicy and vulnerable. they have 3 AA range, you can have a whole lot of melee, a line of ranged behind them, and then some AA guns with artillery as the third line. That's not trivial for any force to get through. You also have a UI problem, in that I cannot tell how much damage my fighter is going to face until I take it (and die). There is nothing that would tell it (this attack will kill you). Nor can we reveal that info without revealing the fighter interceptors behind the front lines....and the community has repeatedly indicated they want this info to remain secret (no matter how many times I try to convince them ;) I think at the end of the day this model could easily revert right back to the current problem, that aircraft just become bystanders in the war, because its simply too dangerous for them to fight.

Going back to my concept. The main draw to me is it streamlines the fighter mechanic into 1 package. They fight, intercept, and sweep all as one package. Now you might use promotions to optimize them in 1 direction or another, but you know longer need to utilize several subsystems individually to complete the air game. Some might argue this is making the air game too simple....but people already complain that late game combat is too tedious, to the point where people are literally stopping their games because its "too much to handle". So some simplification seems the better approach especially if its makes air units more active and less passive. there is no point in having a complex subgame that isn't getting heavily used because overall its just too passive.
 
One idea from Azum's model that is interesting is that interception doesn't block attacks in some cases (if the unit lives) but does in other cases (ie the unit dies).

We might be able to adapt that to my model. Instead of fighters can always ignore interception, we can modify that dogged pursuit concept.

"Dogged Pursuit": If you are over 50% Hp when your attack is intercepted, the attack is not stopped.

And obviously the 50% could be adjusted. But the idea is that when your airforce is fresh it can get in attacks, but as they get beat up the interception gets stronger and stops them cold. This is also an interesting QoL benefit, as it means that a fighter that gets intercepted won't complete their attack (and takes the Air defense damage from teh unit), which means they don't take the 1-2 punch of interception + air defense damage which might kill the unit. So in some ways it might save the attacker a few planes but not committing an attack when their plane is low and intercepted.
 
and switch them all off in 1 attack
Not all! You only switch off those adjacent to the sweep.
I guess it comes down to just how much AA is needed to hit this "total shield" threshold?
It all depends on the numbers. They'll be very different from the current values. And don't forget that the air sweeper gets bonus CS to "endure" the interceptors more easily. It won't be easy to hit that threshold.
You also have a UI problem, in that I cannot tell how much damage my fighter is going to face until I take it (and die).
You can tell (plus or minus 20% as always), if you have sight on all the interceptors in the area. Use your spies/recon/whatever!

And your system has the same problem anyway. We aren't going to allow you to reveal hidden info :P

But I'm actually fine with either as long as we move away from flat damage numbers. Which means no more 5 flat damage on fighter attacks, Carpet Bombing isn't dealing flat 20 damage, and land units don't deal flat damage when defending against air strikes.
 
Edited my proposal to add missiles and nukes in this new interception model.
 
And your system has the same problem anyway. We aren't going to allow you to reveal hidden info :p

The difference is because mine is 1 at a time, the max you will ever deal with is a "suped up interceptor plane" that can do X amount of damage to you (probably 30 - 35ish if its the same tech level as you). So you always know the worst that you are going to get on a single hit when you send your fighter out.

Your system it could range from "nothing" to "you are immediately vaporized" based on that hidden info. And right now how you solve that is you do an air sweep, and your fighter takes some pain. In your system both if I send a bomber or if I do an air sweep I could lose a plane...;.that would lead to SUPER passive play.
 
It's not going to be possible to hide so many units that even an air sweeper is instantly vaporized (when you see almost nothing in the combat sim). Unless you're sweeping with a Triplane in Information I guess.
 
It's not going to be possible to hide so many units that even an air sweeper is instantly vaporized (when you see almost nothing in the combat sim). Unless you're sweeping with a Triplane in Information I guess.
I mean its not hard at all to hide 6 fighters (which is just 1 city a bit back with an airport). I had that happen in my last big air war game I was showing on discord. I was literally doing 8-9 sweeps a turn to clear all the coverage, there were so many planes behind the scenes intercepting
 
My main beef with the current system of air units is that strategic bombers and fighters are the 3rd and 4th most important/common combat roles for aircraft, and yet that is what civ 5 bases all the air units around.

I like the idea of making intercept 100% all the time and removing their capacity for ground attacks. Air superiority fighters seem to also cover the role of reconnaissance with their clear vision around the city they are in. This makes fighters kind of like a passive air defense buff.

This still leaves the role of direct air attacker which is currently filled by the bomber line, and I have a problem with that. The current line uses WW2 era strategic bombers, which area bombed large targets like entire cities. The Stealth bomber in the game is a B2 Spirit Strategic bomber. It has 1 job: drop nukes. Thus, it is IRL equivalent to the ICBM in-game. The game allowing you to hit infantry units in the field with a B2 Spirit is asinine. Both are either incapable of precision bombing, or completely unsuited to the job, and there is no way they would be able to attack a ground or naval unit reliably. There is a group of aircraft that serve that crucial role however: The Attack Aircraft.

Attack aircraft are direct fire support and precision bombers. Famous examples include the Ju 87 Stuka and the A-10 Warthog. Maybe they aren’t as glamorous as Mustangs or Spitfires, but they are the workhorses of a real military.

Spoiler Proposal :

Missile Line.
Get rid of them. Because they suck.
Could be repurposed for upgraded city attack (see missile redesign thread)

Fighter line:
Triplane -> Interceptor -> Jet Fighter
Cannot attack.
Gives unobstructed vision in large radius
Gives interception passively in area around where they are stationed (however that works)

Ground Attack Line:
Bomber -> Attack Aircraft (Uses IL-2 Model) -> Multirole Fighter (Uses F-18 Model)
Can attack cities and units
Subject to interception (however that works)
Multirole fighter could have some weak contribution to interception, or some way to counter/defend, but not nearly as good as a dedicated air superiority fighter

Strategic Bomber Line
Heavy Bomber -> Strategic Bomber (Uses B-52 Model)
Large RCS
Can only attack cities
Takes major damage from interception (often 1-shotted)

Nuke Line
ICBM replaced with the B2 Spirit model.
More consistent with the B29 model used for the base nuke.

Ideology changes:
Freedom - Their Finest Hour:
B-17 replaced with Spitfire (interceptor)

Autocracy - Air Superiority
Zero replaced with Ju 87 Stuka (Attack aircraft)

In summary: The bomber line is repurposed to use models of aircraft that actually were capable of hitting units and ships.
Strategic bombers are moved into a new line, effectively replacing Missiles as the niche heavy hitter. But they are reusable so they don't suck as hard.
 
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Sounds better than EAW.

Still, changing interception should go first.
 
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