all good until i go to war

[amitm02]

Hi all
First i would like to apologize for my English as I'm not a native speaker.

I play at noble level (BTS), and actually doing pretty well (thanks to the many article i read here).

The problem start when i decide it's time to go to war.

- it takes many many turns to build a stack. (i need a big stack as for every city attack i lose many CAT's)
- somehow the opponent sense (or spy) that I'm building an army and build one too. making my war campaign long and hard.
- during the war (which take some good amount of turns as well) i need to keep building CAT's to replace those i lose.

BUT (!) , during all that time other civs, which are not in war, improve their economy and research, placing them in a much better position then i am.

The bottom line is that i was in a much better place before i went to war then after, even with my new conquered cities.

1) what am i doing wrong?
2) how many turns does it usually take to build a stack? (when cat's are available)
3) do you attack with all of your cats doing the collateral damage phase, or just until the enemy units are weak enough to be won by the swordsmen (in order to save some cat's)?
4) is there any way to hide the fact you building an army from the opponent?
5) is it me or during the war somehow, the opponent reinforce suspiciously too quickly?

thanks all

 

[GeoModder]

1) what am i doing wrong?

No way of telling without seeing your game.

2) how many turns does it usually take to build a stack? (when cat's are available)

Depends on the number of cities you have, and if you have (a) dedicated military construction city/cities from the early game onwards or not.

3) do you attack with all of your cats doing the collateral damage phase, or just until the enemy units are weak enough to be won by the swordsmen (in order to save some cat's)?

The last option of course, since catapults can't kill units anymore in the Beyond the Sword expansion.

4) is there any way to hide the fact you building an army from the opponent?

From the AI? No way.

5) is it me or during the war somehow, the opponent reinforce suspiciously too quickly?

Check your opponents civic options. If he uses slavery or the conscription civic option, he can spent population to hasten unit production or conscript population as units. You can check this by looking if his population drops in the for you visible cities.

 

[troytheface]

i suggest your timing is off. Two points you raised - taking a long time to build a stack and "the opponent sense (or spy) that I'm building an army and build one too.

according to Attacko, master of attack, the optimal times for war are - horse/sword- rifle- paratroopers. Skip catapult/treb wars- to sloggingly slow and wasteful.

 

[amitm02]

i suggest your timing is off. Two points you raised - taking a long time to build a stack and "the opponent sense (or spy) that I'm building an army and build one too.

according to Attacko, master of attack, the optimal times for war are - horse/sword- rifle- paratroopers. Skip catapult/treb wars- to sloggingly slow and wasteful.

what do you mean by horse/sword?

 

[troytheface]

ancient era afor or near catapults, two move units if you can get them the adequate promotions-ie. guerillaII-and bring a spear for horse counter attack protection.
Speed, surprise, road snipping and luck in the early days

 

[Sisiutil]

From the AI? No way.

according to Attacko, master of attack, the optimal times for war are - horse/sword- rifle- paratroopers. Skip catapult/treb wars- to sloggingly slow and wasteful.

I have to respectfully disagree with these two statements.

You can hide a troop build-up from the AI by using a tactic I call "queue-loading". Build military units in your cities until they're one turn from completion, then insert a different unit into the build queue before it. Unless the AI has a huge espionage lead on you--which is very unlikely--it won't see these units, since they only exist in the build queues, not on the map, and are therefore not visible to scouts and spies.

I do this so that I can swap to the "war civics" (vassalage and theocracy), churn out highly-promoted units for a few turns, then change back to civics that will best help my economy and/or dealing with war weariness. (BTW, checking the sudden leap in your power rating in the graphs screen is always a hoot when you pull this off.)

As for the best time to fight wars, I'd argue the opposite--the earlier, the better. Yes, they can be a slog, especially in the medieval era, but the earlier you gain an advantage, the better, because then you have many, many more turns to realize and benefit from that advantage.

Back to the OP. As was mentioned above, I'd urge you to post a save from a period in a game where you're in the midst of your troop build-up. Then you can get more specific advice to help you out.

Speaking in general terms, though, the best way to build an army quickly is, first of all, to devote yourself just to that. No civilian builds; your cities build nothing but units for several turns. Second, use the axe and the whip; chop forests and use slavery to accelerate production. Remember to earn a level 4 unit early on and build the Heroic Epic in a good production city. The HE city should be building units almost exclusively.

As for the actual war itself--I assume that you are, indeed, using the Catapults to remove the city's cultural defense. I find siege weapons have a slightly higher survival rate when I give them City Raider promotions, so you may want to go that path.

Finally, rather than choosing an easy target first, why not zero in on your enemy's military stack? If possible, first attack his city that houses the most units. Why? At this point, you will probably have more units than you will later. And by eliminating his stack, you make the enemy very, very weak for the rest of the war.

 

[blackrabbit]

Another good tactic that I find works pretty good is go after his industrial complex behind his war machine. Have a stack or two devoted to pillaging. Go for the important stuff first like iron/copper mines and horses. Then go for his other mines to slow his production and farms to kill growth. you'll also get some gold from all the pillaging. Don't forget to kill his roads too.

Doing this might make the war last longer but you'll see his economy fall to pieces almost instantly. Having a spy scope out his land before hand to locate important targets like horses, iron and copper is a good idea. It wouldn't hurt to use a few spies on these targets right before the war so he won't be able to slave build a huge stack of troops right away.

What this does also is it keeps his troops busy. Sometimes an AI civ will send a bunch of troops after the pillagers and leave some cities less defended. If your pillagers are doing thier job right the AI won't be able to keep his war machine going for very long.

Even a lone chariot pillaging in the country side can change the course of a war.

 

[Sisiutil]

A note on pillaging: as blackrabbit suggests, it's a powerful tool, but use it selectively.

Definitely pillage iron and copper, for example, but think twice about horses.

Why? Mounted units don't get defensive bonuses. If all your opponent can build is Archery units, that's all he'll build, and they can be a pain in cities, behind walls, on hills. Especially if your opponent is protective!

However, if the AI has the option to build mounted units, it will, and these are often more easily dealt with--at least, the early-game varieties are, Horse Archers and especially Chariots. Defend the stack with a couple of Spearmen and you're off to the races.

The obvious exception to this trick is if your enemy has an early mounted UU. Pillage Persia's, Egypt's, and Mongolia's horses--your life may depend on it.

 

[mystikmind2005]

A note on pillaging: as blackrabbit suggests, it's a powerful tool, but use it selectively.

Definitely pillage iron and copper, for example, but think twice about horses.

Why? Mounted units don't get defensive bonuses. If all your opponent can build is Archery units, that's all he'll build, and they can be a pain in cities, behind walls, on hills. Especially if your opponent is protective!

However, if the AI has the option to build mounted units, it will, and these are often more easily dealt with--at least, the early-game varieties are, Horse Archers and especially Chariots. Defend the stack with a couple of Spearmen and you're off to the races.

The obvious exception to this trick is if your enemy has an early mounted UU. Pillage Persia's, Egypt's, and Mongolia's horses--your life may depend on it.

Ah those Mongolian horses are devestating - the first time i encountered those things i had axeman and swordsman which could not touch them! Those things consistantly punch well above the reported combat odds.

 

[Crowqueen]

Axe rush.

As soon as you get copper hooked up, go for all-out production, and make sure you have a city with a lot of hills around it worked with mines to make sure it can have a high production output at low population levels. Build axe units until you can build no more. Then slice into your nearest neighbour with three or fewer cities. It is a rush but alongside Chariots (The Wheel, Animal Husbandry) Axemen (Bronze Working) can do a lot of damage to someone without becoming bogged down.

I've taken out the Maya twice in successive games now; this evening I got lucky and smashed them at three cities; last night unfortunately they could expand further and they got five cities before I was even ready with the first stack. I spent most of the rest of the game eliminating them and the Chinese and got bored with it after that. So really if you don't want a long war in the Middle Ages go for a quick, short one in the Ancient or Classical Ages, particularly if you can corner them first and then destroy at your leisure without having to worry about more settlements. The Maya were unlucky, because they were two or three turns away from a fourth city when I ambushed their Settler and Holkan with my approaching stack.

It only really works if you have a victim which is cornered to one end of a snaky continent or has limited room to spam settlers at the very beginning. At the moment I (as Willem van Oranje) am sitting pretty: I have blocked Louis in on one end of the continent, eliminated "Pacman" of the Maya so I could have his land to settle into asap, and the two other major players - Mansa Musa and Zara Yaqob are stuck on an island continent without much room to expand further without Astronomy at least. So a nice little war before Zara gets his Oromo Warriors will be something to aim for, then I can sit back and play nicely for the rest of the game because I fancy something other than Domination.

Save uploaded for your perusal. It is ~500AD, I am the Hindu AP resident, it's Warlord difficulty and it shows that you can actually get away without a huge military presence because most of the southern cities are nice for production and the rest have given me quite a nice economic surplus even at 70-80% research. I really ought to move up a difficulty but I am trying to practice different strategies and become a bit more efficient than I was at Chieftain and Settler. (Uilenperson = Owlperson in Dutch) (The Maya lands were up around Hittsburg (Hittite) and I fancy putting my next Settler near there and using the Forbidden Palace to take care of the expenses while I expand around it onto the islands nearby. Oh, and I got the circumnavigation bonus as well for taking a galley round the world, and I'm about to stop trading with Zara...)

@mystikmind - I once managed to block Genghis off from every source of Horse possible - we were isolated on an island continent playing Hemispheres - but I neglected my military for so long he attacked me anyway, keshiks or no . Never keep a Mongol from his horses or you will live to regret it.

 

[troytheface]

"As for the best time to fight wars, I'd argue the opposite--the earlier, the better."

i'd agree, and i'd agree with the axe/chariot theory- however- in my experience one can garrison chariots while heading or claiming Horseback Riding. (Unless you get that "build a hundred Chariots and you get a promotion" event.) Anything afor Construction is good- unless u have Ivory and ur beelining for Elephants.
But for quick city kill'n- sword and horse and raze. best by test

 

[Gumbolt]

Axe rush.



Save uploaded for your perusal. It is ~500AD, I am the Hindu AP resident, it's Warlord difficulty and it shows that you can actually get away without a huge military presence because most of the southern cities are nice for production and the rest have given me quite a nice economic surplus even at 70-80% research. I really ought to move up a difficulty but I am trying to practice different strategies and become a bit more efficient than I was at Chieftain and Settler. (Uilenperson = Owlperson in Dutch) (The Maya lands were up around Hittsburg (Hittite) and I fancy putting my next Settler near there and using the Forbidden Palace to take care of the expenses while I expand around it onto the islands nearby. Oh, and I got the circumnavigation bonus as well for taking a galley round the world, and I'm about to stop trading with Zara...)

@mystikmind - I once managed to block Genghis off from every source of Horse possible - we were isolated on an island continent playing Hemispheres - but I neglected my military for so long he attacked me anyway, keshiks or no . Never keep a Mongol from his horses or you will live to regret it.

Had a look at this save. You had 3 cities by 3000bc. I suspect you found a settler in a hut or 2. Come higher levels like Monarch you will not get any settlers.

Your capital has sea resources such as fish yet you dont appear to have settled workboats on all of them. I would of done this early on for city growth and to allow whipping to speed up production. On the city screen you are not working the fish resource you settled a workboat on anyway.

For me the biggest glaring issue on this map is jungle. You have 7 workers and over 50+ jungle tiles to clear.I would want 14 workers min for 500ad to help clear the jungle. Once the forest is cleared the workers can move onto new cities as you build them. There is lots of grassland under the jungle.

Grassland = cottages = commerce.

As for military. Yes you do need a big military presence. On higher levels the Ai know how to mass stacks of attacking units. I have seen stacks of 30+ units in some games. I will always have at least 2-3 cities building units or structure to speed up military production. For this I rexx like crazy. 70-80% science is double what mine would be at this year. Although i might have 10+ cities and a stack of axemen and cats about to attack a neighbour.

If i leave a weakly defended border on my games the Ai attacks. Shak, ragner and others dont wait around for an invite.

I think too many workers is never a bad thing. The development of land and resources has to match the speed at which your empire grows.

 

[Joshua67]

All of these posts here pretty much cover it as ive tried and tested much of what these posters have done.The best defense is a good offense.Pillaging and plunder is also what i use as i advance.Workers are the lifeblood of your army and your civilization and you can never have enough of them even into the modern era.

Joshua

 

[The Lemon]

i suggest your timing is off. Two points you raised - taking a long time to build a stack and "the opponent sense (or spy) that I'm building an army and build one too.

I agree with you. My plan is i look for any strategical areas to attack that may be easier/beneficial. I always have a military plan and stick with it. (Remember: Military tactics are your friend )