All truth about slavery/whip/overflow

[pi-r8]

Let me put it this way... I'd rank the importance like this:

1. Something you want to finish asap. Granary in new cities, military units for an immediate war, settlers for a good spot, etc (whip a lot, even if it's inefficient)
2. Growing small cities bigger, when you have enough happiness and they can work improved tiles (don't whip, maximize food)
3. City is mature (using all it's happiness or good tiles). Use mines, cottages, or specialists to use up its food surplus (don't whip)
4. You've done that, but the city still has extra food. Whip it, but just a little.

Sound reasonable?

You were talking about the regrowth from a 3-pop whip, so I thought you meant regrowing all 3 pop. Regrowing 1 pop can happen instantly, but regrowing 3 pop is a serious cost.

 

[Tobiyogi]

Sounds good. Maybe I rank more things among the first category (like library, courthouse, forge) that's why I am inclined to push more often on the slavery-button. So point 3 "city is mature" means for me also that there are some key buildings and not only full citiziens working improved tiles.
Btw, 3-pop-whip from the example is also a heavy exception, normally my goal is to work towards a 2-pop-whip by using mines and chops.
Of course, regrowing all the 3pop does not happen "in a blink" but I still believe that the sacrificed citizens are not lost because my production is already finished thanks to the whip.
The initial discussion was if the mines can equal or outproduce the slavery tool. I am certainly answering to that from a perspective of many AW games I had recently. In a game where you need lots of units from several cities very soon, you can play almost without mines and still having good production. With 3,4 hammers, the axe/spearman is ready to be whipped into max. overflow, and if there is already too much overflow (under 10), you will produce a sword or catapult (under 20 hammers). So I had no "normal" games these last weeks and I should compare my statements also to such kind of game.

 

[pi-r8]

Sounds good. Maybe I rank more things among the first category (like library, courthouse, forge) that's why I am inclined to push more often on the slavery-button. So point 3 "city is mature" means for me also that there are some key buildings and not only full citiziens working improved tiles.

I think in most cases, it's better to grow more than to get those buildings. Like let's say you have a size 8 city, working 1 food bonus, 7 cottages, and some trade routes. A library is +25% , but only if you're running 100% science. In most cases the library is more like a 12.5% bonus, not that great. If you grow 2 extra cottages instead, it's a 25% bonus no matter your research rate, plus it helps them develop into towns. Of course if you whip it will grow back, but the larger city can grow even larger, too.

The initial discussion was if the mines can equal or outproduce the slavery tool. I am certainly answering to that from a perspective of many AW games I had recently. In a game where you need lots of units from several cities very soon, you can play almost without mines and still having good production. With 3,4 hammers, the axe/spearman is ready to be whipped into max. overflow, and if there is already too much overflow (under 10), you will produce a sword or catapult (under 20 hammers). So I had no "normal" games these last weeks and I should compare my statements also to such kind of game.

For an AW game, or any early war, I agree it's more important to get the units out very quickly. That's the best advantage of whipping, even a size 1 city with one food resource can have decent production, you don't have to wait for it to grow or build mines, and you can get your production out in one burst. But if you already have a bunch of mines, it is more efficient to let them build rather than whipping them and regrowing.

 

[Tobiyogi]

For me, the library is equally important to the granary if not the most important building. It is not only +25% but also culture that you need eventually and it opens up the possibility to hire scientists. I am not really good at anticipating city growth, so I am sometimes a bit surprised when I reach the happy cap and then, I can immediately hire scientists due to the library.
Overall, your calculation seems to focus only on what I get now. I agree that in the current moment, the cottages produce more commerce, but when the game allows me to run my slider at 100% for a long time (fail gold, captured cities), I am very happy to have already a library in most of my cities. Your approach would be to develop cottages first and get library (maybe market) later? Maybe that is also a good strategy.
Libraries have another advantage. Maybe you want to go culture later in the game. It is very often the question, which city is supposed to become the 3. legendary one? In that kind of situation, it is also very helpful to have built a very early library in at least 4,5 cities.
Maybe, after all, we talk about different general approaches to the game. I sometimes go culture, and that kind of victory makes it necessary to build up enough spy points against the alleged main opponent in the culture race whilst cultivating several cities of your own. So library, monasteries and courthouses are important buildings here.

Of course, in AW games, all those rules go to hell. Libraries and CH are much less needed. Rather markets, barracks, stables.

 

[sampsa]

If you seriously think the library is even close to being as good or important as the granary, we have spotted a serious flaw in your game. Libraries may pay back their high price, but other stuff like settler/worker/unit/forge often pays back better (obv assuming we have a granary already). Then there is another good choice - growing, in anticipation of caste+paci golden age.

 

[Tobiyogi]

I don't build it first, in that regard the granary is slightly more important, but I see only very little cities that do not deserve a library. When it comes to statistics, I have granaries in all of my cities and libraries in 90% of my cites, all the other buildings are much lower in the ranking. So it's definitely 2. most important, maybe with an IND leader it is tempting to build a bit more forges than usual but overall definitely library over forge.
Again, I would say, we talk about different approaches here. I guess most of the advice here is adapted to a game where the only settings are NHNE. I play usually w/o tech brokering what makes it more crucial to achieve a very high tech efficiency. When I play a game with full tech trading, it is normal to get many techs as a bye-product of a bigger trade. Also I can sell a bunch of old stuff when I check regularly what others need. W/o tech brokering that doesn't work and libraries are, imo, much more important. So there are less times where I can run 100%, (because i don't get easy money for old techs), and I want to fully maximize those times, so libraries almost everywhere and also asap.
On the other hand, w/o tech brokering has some degree of safety for me that I can chose who to give what and be sure they cannot trade it around. But for a player who checks the tech window quite often, the full trading makes the game easier. Alone all the money for stupid techs I have never researched on my own grants me a dozen of extra turns at 100%. I sometimes even felt ashamed to take that money in such a game, so I don't play with full trading no longer at all.

 

[sampsa]

But libraries go down in value if you have to run 0% slider a lot. Even without tech brokering you can conquer more land instead of building buildings (also, no tech brokering slows down overall tech pace, not just your tech pace).

 

[Tobiyogi]

Ofc, tech pace goes down in general, but this is exactly what makes it crucial to have even better research. Because I cannot rely on Mansa or whoever to trade me Philosophy or paper in time. And there is always someone to go straight for Lib. I spend definitely more turns on 100% than 0%, so the libraries have their value and that's why I don't build markets often and grocers only for health. However, in full trading games, I have much more turns on 100%, with a FIN or ORG leader basically all the time (on IMM).

 

[sampsa]

However, in full trading games, I have much more turns on 100%, with a FIN or ORG leader basically all the time (on IMM).

Yes, and that's why you gain more value from a library in full trading games.

Ofc, tech pace goes down in general, but this is exactly what makes it crucial to have even better research

Illogical statement, but I think we'll just leave it here.

 

[Tobiyogi]

Yes and no. When I am at 100% anyway, I don't have to rack my brain if I get the most benefit out of it. I just know that my tech rate will be sufficient to achieve my long term goals (even with less libraries). When money is flowing (also in a case where you get a bunch of early fail gold), you would always tech at 100%, even w/o a library in the capitol, or wouldn't you? Why would you save money when you have more than 200 gold?
On the other hand, when I know already, i will have probably less turns on 100%, I want to maximize those times and I consider the library even more important here to grant me certain goals and to keep the level high (like winning lib race, getting aestetics soon, etc). It's not so much about "efficiency" but about what is needed to achieve goals. So in either case, I pursue a similar amount of beakers, with full trading thanks to the money, w/o tech brokering thanks to more libraries.
On the paper, the library would make more "sense" when the tech rate is always at 100%, but in reality you can also win lib thanks to better trades. When trading is restricted, the library gains more value when you play that kind of game trying to be tech leader. That's at least my kind of game, mostly.

 

[Fish Man]

If you seriously think the library is even close to being as good or important as the granary, we have spotted a serious flaw in your game. Libraries may pay back their high price, but other stuff like settler/worker/unit/forge often pays back better (obv assuming we have a granary already). Then there is another good choice - growing, in anticipation of caste+paci golden age.

Granary is like the HC of buildings, yes. Library is a distant second; however, nothing compares to basically doubling your food output (well, it's not exactly that, but close enough).

I'd say library > forge though in terms of buildings. The science bonus isn't even the most important part. Getting GS out is just so essential for bulbing, as is border pops without throwing 80 beakers into an otherwise useless tech you can usually trade for and then an extra 30 hammers/city for a building that's instantly useless the moment you get 10 culture (unless you're CHA).

 

[krikav]

I build quite alot of libraries, but thats often because there is a period when better stuff isn't available.
But after currency or MC or when I have some decent units to build, I only very rarely build libraries in cities that is lacking commerce tiles and cottages.
After 1AD, sinking 90 hammers into a building to get about 2-3 bpt is a bad idea.

In cities that do have some cottages and/or commerce tiles, they often do get built though.

 

[Fippy]

Well it also depends on what kind of map we are playing, on Iso with a poor happy cap i might not build any granaries at start while libs are needed in several cities to run those scientists
Ofc granaries are much more important once cities can grow and stuff has to be whipped, comparing both buildings makes little sense..
one doubles whipping & food power while already doing well, and the other can be essential while struggling with land, trading or happy problems.

 

[krikav]

Well it also depends on what kind of map we are playing, on Iso with a poor happy cap i might not build any granaries at start while libs are needed in several cities to run those scientists

As you point out, in many iso situations where you are in no rush at all to get infrastructure up granaries might wait a long time.
Zero point building granaries when all cities will be stagnant at 5-6 pop working cottages and/or scientists.

The map specific situation always dictate what is best.
Discussions of the sort in this thread is trying to look at general cases. And although a general case is aggregated from a wast collection of maps, no single map is equal to the average.
It's a mistake to try to force your statistically informed opinion on maps w/o reading in all the nuances.

Somewhat related:
https://www.thestar.com/news/insigh...ir-force-discovered-the-flaw-of-averages.html

 

[Tobiyogi]

That's what I tried to say earlier, that the kind of map or even the pursued victory type can make it more ore less attractive to build specific things. For me, as I play only w/o tech brokering and also like to go for culture, libraries and also monasteries have usually much bigger value.
Maybe quite a few of the discussions here try to set things in the right order even though the right order to do/build something can vary a lot due to the complexity of the game.
Concerning mysticism, several things come to my mind that don't make it a complete useless tech @Fish Man. Besides being CHA, 1. Sitting Bull benefits from monuments (Zara maybe not so much), 2. having marble can give a shot at ToA/Oracle 3. also in situations where you really want a border pop but a library in the first place is a too big investment (especially in coastal cities). At the time where someone will trade it to me however, it has already lost most of its value and then I need it only in order to reach monarchy one day.

 

[pi-r8]

It's too hard to talk in generalities, you have to actually do some math.
Show me a typical city where you want to maximize research, and calculate the difference between (a) whipping a library and (b) just working more cottages. I think in *most* cases, the cottages will come out ahead. Not just immediately, but in the long run too.
(not including cases where you want to run scientists or really need extra culture, just looking at the research benefit)

 

[Lexicus]

I would say the whip may become inferior only when you get stuff like Workshops under Caste or SP Watermills. And even then the value of the whip is that it gives you the thing you're producing right now, which is often very important in the early turns as has been pointed out. E.g. you may get a better food->hammer conversion ration from working tiles to build a unit but if you have a short window after researching, say, Military Tradition before the AI gets pikemen, you need those units NOW.

 

[rah]

The whip only becomes inferior when the city is finally the size where it takes longer to replenish the population vs building it outright.
And can still be useful then if you're need to panic build.

 

[Tobiyogi]

It's too hard to talk in generalities, you have to actually do some math.
Show me a typical city where you want to maximize research, and calculate the difference between (a) whipping a library and (b) just working more cottages. I think in *most* cases, the cottages will come out ahead. Not just immediately, but in the long run too.
(not including cases where you want to run scientists or really need extra culture, just looking at the research benefit)

Sorry, cannot "prove" it and as I said earlier, maybe my strategy is even inferior. Usually I don't have cities whith 7, 8 good cottage tiles plus I do not consider the library solely a beaker-boosting building, but I also value the culture very high. Culture is very similar to cottages- you have to start early to "mark your land" and preserve your tiles (maybe you have a CRE neighbour).
For me, whipping and regrowing in the early game turns out to be more profitable than growing on small cottages. There are so many different strategies. I have watched AZ longtime, he hardly cottages anything than the capitol and he has won many many deity games (i know that there are better players out there).
If we come back to the initial point (not talking about cottages but about mines), I would always whip away commerce-less mines for a quicker building I want to get. I do not see any reason in keeping those citizens because they do not contribute anything, plus they will regrow.

 

[Tobiyogi]

Also I don't like to play financial players (feels like cheating). I prefer non-fin guys on chilly IMMORTAL to a financial guy on stressful DEITY. If we suppose that there is an ideal city with 6-8 good cottages (FP or riverside grassland) with maybe even a financial leader, then you definitely should not whip away those tiles. But a bunch of grassland 2/1 cottages or a couple of mines? I'd rather get the library or courthouse, especially in a game era where whipping is part of the daily life and the cottages won't get much peace.