Almost ain't is: a vital resource just out of reach

[1940LaSalle]

I have no source of rubber which, as we all know, is vital to gaining infantry as well as a host of other useful units/items. There is a source, however, in a square that borders my territory. That is owned by the Chinese, who are sufficiently technologically backward that they don't know it's there, never mind know how to trade or use it. I'm reluctant to go into an offensive war, given the potential for war weariness and given the inherent advantage defenders have. To cap it off, trying to trade for the city in question is out of the question: we all know the AI won't listen to offers to trade cities.

So what do I do? Nothing? Try to ruin the Chinese economically/culturally in the distant hope I could get the rubber I need? Declare war over some trivial issue and then sit back and go on the defensive while they in theory burn out? Take my chances on the offensive? I'm stumped.

Oh, one other thing: a few other civs have rubber as well but they're no better off technologically than the Chinese--and trade with those other civs would require said other civs to establish sea trade in their own right, which none have done to date.

 

[Turner]

I'd go to war with the Chinese. They have it, you want it. It's probably the best option all around.

Of course, no civ will trade for rubber if they only have the one source.

 

[Optional]

Sometimes there is the option of poaching a resource from an opponant by settling right up against it. Works only if the other civ has the resource in by cultural expansion, of course.

If you need to go to war for it, what's your concern? You say defenders have an advantage, well I think this game is made for offensive units. Yes, defenders get a terrain bonus, but artillery and speedy attackers will grind them down. If played tactically right, you will hardly be suffering counter attacks if attacking a technologically inferior civ. Have you at least got a decent stable of cavalry?

 

[Aabraxan]

Perhaps unsurprisingly, I'd go to war for it. What's the difficulty level here? If the tile in question in right on the edge of your territory and the Chinese are technologically backwards, you should be able to mount a fast war to take down the 2-3 Chinese cities closest to the rubber, scoot a couple of settlers in to claim that resource, then make peace, if you had to. (If they're really, really backwards (as in "your cavalry vs. their spears" backwards), perhaps you could just wipe them out.)

 

[ChaosArbiter]

Jumping on the War Bandwagon. Plus, if you can use the Rubber, and they can't, the Defense Advantage will revert to you once you get the Rubber hooked up, since you can start upgrading to Infantry. If you're really worried about actually facing them, fortify your cities except for a small section farther away from them with no units - they'll almost certainly beeline for those unguarded units, where you can pick the terrain and have better lines of movement. Take the Rubber, smash their armies, take another few cities if you're up to it, then sue for peace.

 

[CKS]

Sometimes there is the option of poaching a resource from an opponant by settling right up against it. Works only if the other civ has the resource in by cultural expansion, of course.

This is my usual approach. It even works if the tile is right next to your opponent's city as long as they don't have much culture and you have lots of money (or lives, I suppose, if you don't have a cash-rushing government) to burn on rushing culture.

If your only other sources of rubber are on other land masses, it is still possible that they are better choices for poaching. You could also try building a city on the other land mass and building a harbor there, so that you could trade with those AI after gifting them to replaceable parts. Waiting for backward AI to build harbors can take forever, but you can build it for them.

If the AI are really backward, though, war is likely a better option than gifting RP and it is certainly a more straightforward one than culturally shifting the boundaries.

 

[Spoonwood]

If they're really, really backwards (as in "your cavalry vs. their spears" backwards), perhaps you could just wipe them out.

Hmmm... that sounds familar. I know, just more shameless self-promotion .

So what do I do? Nothing? Try to ruin the Chinese economically/culturally in the distant hope I could get the rubber I need? Declare war over some trivial issue and then sit back and go on the defensive while they in theory burn out? Take my chances on the offensive? I'm stumped.

Sign an RoP with them, hook up 2 of their sources of rubber, then gift them Replacable Parts and trade for the rubber before the next turn hits. Or do the same thing with another tribe that has rubber. If they only have one source though, that won't work.

I actually favor the war solution here. But, it seems clear you need help tacticly. So, I HIGHLY recommend this article . Most of the more experienced players on this site I suspect have learned from that article directly, or from someone who has. Disbanding your outpost city doesn't come as necessary (and I don't know why she recommends it), and you don't necessarily need cavalry either. If they have rifles and you have knights, then knights can take out redlined (that's 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, or 1/5 rifles)... or medieval infantry, or longbows, or guerillas. Use the artilleries to redline and kill any units they send into your territory the next couple of turns and then kill them. Make peace, and there's your rubber.

As another tactic, if you have enough cities, and have the Military Academy built, shut off research for a few turns, and buy an armies every other turn or every 3 or every 4 turns whatever it takes. Or if you have enough cash, buy and worker and then switch to an army and buy it on that turn also. You'll need 1640 gold in the bank to do this though. For the first method you need 1500+ gold if you can do it every other turn.

 

[1940LaSalle]

Hmmm.....that RoP won't work with the Chinese since they have but one source. It might, however, with another civ. It would mean landing a settler, a worker, and some muscle on the other civ's shores and building a city, which theoretically means war but an RoP could be worked out. Then the tech gift and trade could follow.

I'm trying to avoid the military option until I have rubber and therefore infantry, which would give what I suspect to be a nearly-unstoppable advantage on offense.

 

[ChaosArbiter]

Hmmm.....that RoP won't work with the Chinese since they have but one source. It might, however, with another civ. It would mean landing a settler, a worker, and some muscle on the other civ's shores and building a city, which theoretically means war but an RoP could be worked out. Then the tech gift and trade could follow.

Building a city in another Civ's territory is a Declaration of War. Why do you want a city over there anyway? As long as they have Rubber hooked up and you can both trade across the water you're good.

I'm trying to avoid the military option until I have rubber and therefore infantry, which would give what I suspect to be a nearly-unstoppable advantage on offense.

Infantry only have 6 Attack (the same as Cavalry), and Artillery doesn't need Rubber to be built.

 

[Spoonwood]

What resources do you have right now? Coal? Iron? Horses? Saltpeter? Do you have the Military Academy? A save for us?

 

[CKS]

Building a city in another Civ's territory is a Declaration of War. Why do you want a city over there anyway? As long as they have Rubber hooked up and you can both trade across the water you're good.

I don't think they can trade across the water. (See the first post.) Presumably a harbor is needed and the AI don't have any. If the problem is bad maps, though, then some map trading will make life a lot simpler.

If the other land mass is completely filled, and you need to build a city and a harbor over there, but you don't want a real war, you can sidestep most of it this way. Build a city in an area that is roaded but not railroaded, or in the territory of an AI with no horses. Immediately rush the harbor. Wait one turn and survive any attacks. Gift the city to someone who is not at war. Now you have a harbor to use for trade, but you don't have to fight a real war over it.

 

[andrewv42]

War is truly the best option. If the Chinese don't have sufficient technology, then conquest of their territory should be simple. If you do not have a sizeable military force, you should be able to create one large enough to capture 2 - 3 Chinese cities in around ten turns.

 

[splunge the 2nd]

War weariness becomes a problem with only with losses or being attacked. Not that I'm the master of warring, but a well prepared attack against a backwards enemy should be well tolerated. I happily war away in Republic and once in a while need to bump the luxury slider but usually get away with WW being a minor issue.

 

[Spoonwood]

Not quite Mr. Splunge http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3/strategy/war_weariness.php

 

[CommandoBob]

The problem with trading for a resource such as Rubber is that you only have access to that resource for 20 turns and then you lose it. You might be able to renegoiate the deal and then again that may not happen. And if the civ in question is far away, you don't have a lot of leverage over them if they decide to be snotty and unreasonable.

Like many others, I think you best, permanent solution is to redraw the borders of China and move Rubber safely into your own area of control. Backwards or not, you don't want China and Infantry next door to you.

It sounds like you are heading for a Space Ship or Diplomatic victory.

 

[1940LaSalle]

OK, here's an overview of the situation, annotated to suit:


A thought occurred to me: what if I were to abandon/raze Mainz and immediately thereafter build a new city right on the border that picked off rubber? Or would the terrain not allow that ploy? (I may also have to remove the mine on which the rifleman is standing in that shot.)

Your advice, based on the attached screen shot? Thanks.

 

[ChaosArbiter]

what if I were to abandon/raze Mainz and immediately thereafter build a new city right on the border that picked off rubber?

That would work ... except that I'm fairly certain Tientsin has more than enough culture to make where Mainz was part of Chinese territory, so it wouldn't work. You wouldn't have to remove the mine, though - cities overwrite terrain improvements.

 

[Spoonwood]

what if I were to abandon/raze Mainz and immediately thereafter build a new city right on the border that picked off rubber?

If it would work, you'd probably have to declare war to do it. If it wouldn't work, you'll have to take that city by force to get the rubber.

I see a 4/4 cavalry, 2 4/4 guerrilas, and two 4/4 rifles there. With artillery proper redlining the defenders in Tienstein, which I'll assume as 3 4/4 rifles and a cavalry or three... oh wait... I guess you're not playing Deity, so a 4/4 rifle, a 4/4 musket, and a knight, since you're playing Monarch? Regent? Anyways, pretty much with the units you have there WITH artillery proper support, you almost surely have enough to capture/raze Tientsin, even probably on Deity. If I guess wrong, you almost surely have more military elsewhere than can help for support. Once you have the rubber for a turn, you can upgrade rifles to infantry, and any possible counterattack from the Chinese becomes ineffective against your infantry.

Do the Chinese have some bad Mutual Protection Pact with someone else? If not, I also see Russians and Ottomans nearby. So, declare on China, and sign everyone else in against them. Russia and the Ottomans should help a bunch if the war really concerns you. Other than border defenses to handle a possible initial counter attack, they probably won't pose all too much of a problem with alliances and other tribes to worry about.

Have you read the article written by Moonsinger that I recommended yet? Could you post a save for us? What's your desired VC? What does your military look like? The map in general? Do you not want to go to war, because you like to play as a pacifist? I often have enjoyed playing as a pacifist or playing so that I don't attack enemy cities in the past, so I can understand not wanting to go to war. But, if you only worry about war weariness, then fight the war and RAISE THE LUXURY SLIDER TO HANDLE ANY WAR WEARINESS.

I know I may seem harsh, but after a slew of comments here and from what you've said it looks like you may have started to wish for some subtle trick in the game that might not come as possible. There exists no need for you to spend time wishing for things in civ III that can't happen (given that you can't resettle and get this rubber source without declaring and I feel sure enough you can't). If you want THAT rubber source, either go for a diplomatic victory and forget about the rubber, or go to war and make it your own.

 

[TheOverseer714]

TIENTSIN must go! You have cavalry and railroads and can build artillery. You could take what you need. Otherwise, why even have a militeay?

 

[CommandoBob]

Even if you were to remove Mainz and move it 1E, the rubber would not be yours.

It is sorta tricky to explain in words but if the city spacing is like so:

C x C (city-tile-city)

the AI gets the x-tile when your city is built.

A newly built city, on the turn it is built, cannot capture the initial 9-tiles of an AI city. It ain't agonna happen.

Take Tientsen, raze it and build your German city on the Rubber.