Altar of Lu nerfed - why?

[BCalchet]

Remove free win for good/neutral -> balance in favour of neutral/evil? I can't quite see how that works...

 

[Rhaego]

Evil/neitral have slavery rushing options, good civs now very thin on shields early/middle game.

I play Kuriotates and found OO every game I can - leads to Mind Stapling which grants Slavery civic.

 

[Mutineer]

I play Kuriotates and found OO every game I can - leads to Mind Stapling which grants Slavery civic.

You mean that good civ now allways foced to become neitral?

 

[Bitwise]

Personally I think that when you start building the final stage of the Altar every evil civ (or at least every AV civ) should declare war on you. Winning with the Altar is so easy it feels like cheating, especially compared to the ToM.

 

[Gamestation]

I think this change just shift balance strongly into favor of neitral/evil civs.
(If one can talk about ballance in FFH)

Where god civs should get there shields now?
Evil/neitral have slavery rushing options, good civs now very thin on shields early/middle game.

I need to check it more, but that is my thinking right now.
My personal opinion is that problem lying in Argeculture civic, not in altar.

I think Mutineer has a point with the agriculture civic. As it is now, I almost never switch out of it. +2 food per farm is just too good to abandon, especially when you are surrounded by grasslands (no hammer penalty). Maybe everyone should try reducing the food bonus to +1 per farm for a while (using the editor) and see if the Altar is still too easy to get when you can't run as many priests.

 

[Grey Fox]

It's a highly useful civic, but there are still situations where I don't use it. And if there is a problem with it, I don't think it is this civic's fault and I would hate to see it go.

Does anyone ever use Foreign Trade and Mercantilism? I can see the use of foreign trade, cause in a big empire with open borders, an extra trade route per city can generate a lot of income, and the culture bonus can be nice. But Mercantilism? No foreign trades and +20% Gold and one happy from market? I can only see one use for this civic, and that is for when you are at war, have no open borders, and are running research at 0%.

 

[Polycrates]

Yeah, I'm not sure the altar itself was overpowered, I feel that the problem mainly comes from both the incredible power of agriculture, and also Religious Discipline being on such a potentially early tech (which can be lightbulbed straight after philosophy).
Without RD, you need to actually build infrastructure to run priests, and you don't have the huge happiness boost either. I think it's viable to still have as a civic, but I think it needs to be moved back a tech or two (and maybe only unlimited priests in state religion cities).

 

[xAlephx]

I think the multiple factors discussed here all add together into altar needing to be toned down. A combination of Agriculture being the strongest in its category (aside from Guardian) and arriving at the very beginning of the game, Religious Discipline coming too early (compared, say, to Scholarship, it's closest competitor for effectiveness), the Altar being too strong too early in its development, and Philosophical being an exceptionally powerful trait (especially since it also squashes the additional cost you would incur from RD) led to loss of game diversity. With that kind of four part synergy, you've got the potential for a lot of problems (to say nothing of Logos, the best abuser of this strat, having additional general civic use synergies due to being Spiritual and a rough and tumble combat unit coming online with Priesthood).

I really like the change to Altar - it is a nice conservative alteration, since Philosophical and Agriculture are useful for a huge number of play strats while the Altar was an overpowered application of these strategies. Changing altar seems like the smallest change necessary to limit an overused strat and inject more diversity back into the game. Kudos.

 

[Broken Hawk]

Well I'm glad this thread was started. You were right Grey Fox if you remember our discussion .

I thought there was a bug with AoL. It may have been too easy of a victory but I think the cutback is a little drastic.

 

[Grey Fox]

You were right Grey Fox if you remember our discussion .

I'm sorry but I cant remember exactly what you mean, I discuss so much that there has even been discussion about discussing my inability to remember what I discuss. I digress.

EDIT: Oh yeah I know what you mean now.

 

[Hoerks]

I really wonder why the AI was made to declare war on you when you start building the ToM (4000 Shields) but not when you start the final stage of AoL (which costs 4000 shields too) as both are victory conditions. There seems to be no difference after the requirements for one are met. Why punish the player who decides to win the already harder way?
Also AoL favours certain civs and religions too much. (the ones that would focus on prophets anyway). There is only one stragegy to achieve AoL victory. this is too specific. Doing anything other looks like crippling yourself.

 

[kenken244]

really i think the biggest problem with the altar is that only eil civs dogpile you when you build it. and because RoK spreads around so early, that dosn't pose as much of a challenge. this could possibly be countered by:

having blasperaph and hannah rush OO
have anyone without at least the blessed level of the altar dogpile anyone with the 6th one
make lesser towers provide some boni of their own

 

[uberfish]

It's a highly useful civic, but there are still situations where I don't use it. And if there is a problem with it, I don't think it is this civic's fault and I would hate to see it go.

Does anyone ever use Foreign Trade and Mercantilism? I can see the use of foreign trade, cause in a big empire with open borders, an extra trade route per city can generate a lot of income, and the culture bonus can be nice. But Mercantilism? No foreign trades and +20% Gold and one happy from market? I can only see one use for this civic, and that is for when you are at war, have no open borders, and are running research at 0%.

Well, I always research agriculture early and stay in it the entire game. It's just that good because it potentially turns every grassland in your empire into the equivalent of a food special. The only exception is with Ljosalfar and their Ancient Forest Town late game.

+2 food per farm triples the effective output of a grassland early game (remember that 2 food are required to feed the worker) and doubles it post-Sanitation. Even if you can't slave, you can work mines to get the production, build workers and settlers, use your excess food to feed Plains cottages, or convert some of it to cash at 2 for 1 via Aristocracy (3 for 1 if you're Financial.)

Basically, a large part of the balance issues with things such as vampires, Altar, slavery can be traced back to food being in oversupply, and the cause of *that* is Agriculture being overpowered.

 

[QES]

That's true, Sacrifice the Weak is a strong civic.

And yeah, those Succubus sure are fun company.

Clearly you've never actually met one. When one's soul is rent from one's body as a heavily glued bandage would be from over a particularly hairy scab - one can actually feel the moment of cold and certain doom.

Siphoned from the remaining drained carcass, the soul is then consumed as though fine sherry sipped from a dirty mug. Having lost it's purpose and vibrancy one's body then encrusts in upon itself, imploding ever slightly and bringing out age rapidly and forcefully to the surface.

Satisfied or not, the succubus moves on, licking her lips in anticipation of her next victim before even the taste of the last had left her tounge. This, while the broken and lost body wanders over the earth and through the aethers of thought in search of what it had lost - yet still craving again to meet the succubus - an addiction horrible, an addiction created, an addiction everlasting.
-Qes


EDIT: Did I just accidentally create a pedia entry for her?

 

[MayNilad Man]

Not only that, but perhaps a 'fun' feature that will differentiate her a bit more from the rest of the rank and file.

 

[it-ogo]

I believe that Altar is STILL overpowered in comparison with other victories. It is a fastest way to win from stronger AI enemies because AI is really unable to make a final rush for the Altar.
Research up to Strength of Will, build Divination Tower for Omniscience, then boost GP generation with civics and collect gold for the final Altar - no research, no buildings, no units. IMO that is enough to hurry up Altar by an order while AI has fun with all features of FFH-II.