Alternate Tech Tree Development

[QES]

Ok, in an effort to bring this thread back on subject. Here is my editted Tech Tree.

I added a handful of techs back in, and shuffled a lot of the buildings/units/whatever around - Still need to do more in that area (units
and Civics mostly)..


Playwise - I find that the AI too frequently researches multiple religeons using this tree; but on the other hand, the AI doesn't research
all four schools of magic and has no problem reaching Arch-mages before I can.

Spoiler :

As you can see, this image was captured from a Game in progress. I'm running in 4th place - far behind first place, but it is possible to
catch 2nd and 3rd places. I have very good relations with 1st and 2nd places - so I am hoping to get to Honor (which allows for Perm
Alliances in my game). Atleast 3 other Civs have Arcane lore, Education, and Philosophy - none of which I have researched. But my
homeland is huge, completely covered in forests, playing as Frodo+WayofLeaves, with 5-6 Treants running around (plus whatever appears
from the forests). It is turn 565 in an Epic game on a Large map with 12 Civs (one of which I haven't contacted yet).

Oh, and before anyone comments on MY researching all four schools of magic - I didn't. The ones that I didn't research were given to me
in tech trades, same with horseback riding, archery, and a few others.

I dont like the way the schools of magic work in relation to sorcery and summoning.

Specifically, it appears that one would have to "backtrack" from specializing in one, to reach the application they want.

If i wanted to specialize in death magic, I'd also have to research something like divination to get sorcery. I'm ok with seperating the schools of magic so that specialization is interesting, - but then in the same way, one shouldnt have to get all the schools of music to have all the applications of magic.

Just my two coppers,
-Qes

 

[Yoshi2942]

Umm.. The schools of magic area almost Identical to the Vanilla FFH tree.

The only difference is that you need Arcane lore to get Ethereal Call. I did this because I didn't like that Archmages needed Summoning, but Summoners didn't need Sorcery.

But you do NOT need all four schools for anything (cept Tower of Mastery victory - I suppose - but I've never even gotten close to one of those due to lack of mana nodes).. In the game I was playing - I had all four schools, but not by necessity.

 

[QES]

Umm.. The schools of magic area almost Identical to the Vanilla FFH tree.

The only difference is that you need Arcane lore to get Ethereal Call. I did this because I didn't like that Archmages needed Summoning, but Summoners didn't need Sorcery.

But you do NOT need all four schools for anything (cept Tower of Mastery victory - I suppose - but I've never even gotten close to one of those due to lack of mana nodes).. In the game I was playing - I had all four schools, but not by necessity.

Right. Sorry, didnt make myself clear.

I dont like the way it works - I wasnt insinuating that yours was worse. Sorry. I just want to be able to pick one school, and if I choose, ignore the rest. Perhaps for some things they should require all of them, if your going for that, but Personally, why not allow civs to only need one of the four to continue the advancement down the line?

It was more of a suggestion than a critique, sorry. I'm hoping another incarnation of your tech tree might be able to figure out how this could work.
-Qes

 

[Yoshi2942]

It wouldn't be hard to make work, just allow each of the schools to apply to either Summoning or Sorcery, not hard at all. I guess it could be a good idea to do, to allow for your idea... In fact, it probably is a good idea.. but the weighing of mana improments need to be downed dramatically to offset the virtual doubling of value each of the schools would have to the AI.

I'll try this. Anything else, in general - or specific to mine - that you feel would lead to a good tech tree?

 

[xanaqui42]

It wouldn't be hard to make work, just allow each of the schools to apply to either Summoning or Sorcery, not hard at all. I guess it could be a good idea to do, to allow for your idea... In fact, it probably is a good idea.. but the weighing of mana improments need to be downed dramatically to offset the virtual doubling of value each of the schools would have to the AI.

I'll try this. Anything else, in general - or specific to mine - that you feel would lead to a good tech tree?

I'm more in favor of altering the AI to match the tech tree than the other way around, but here's a few tips:

1) The narrower, the better. The wider it is, the more effect bad choices will have on the AI.
2) The more interconnected the better (with AND prereqs). Again, this limits the effect of bad choices.
3) If you want the AI to rush certain techs (like religions, or ones that grant a great person to the first discoverer), reduce the curve of increase in tech costs.
4) Spread out the Node builds to 1 per tech. Anything above 1, and they're over-costed with the present code.
5) Intersperse different unit types in the same branch (or use step 2 to get this sort of effect).

 

[Yoshi2942]

I agree that flavoring the Techs so that the AI would aim for specific branches would be great.

As for the Schools of magic, I thnk that I might have an even better idea - ONE school.. just create one tech, "Mana Nodes" or whatever, and let that tech give access to ALL of the node creation - this would solve the problem of the AI researching all four of them, and no need to worry about modifying the code (not that it is a big problem). As for the benefit for the player? Who cares? the player already knows how to research one school and get basically whatever spells they want.

This would also reduce the Height of the Tech Tree in General - which is always a goal of mine.

Any thoughts on this? Ok, I have one thought, Aesthetically - it would be horrible to have a dozen or so images in the tech box... but I think that there is a way to solve this by using an off the table tech which is awarded to the player when they research this tech.. just have to figure out how to automatically give that tech.

 

[QES]

I agree that flavoring the Techs so that the AI would aim for specific branches would be great.

As for the Schools of magic, I thnk that I might have an even better idea - ONE school.. just create one tech, "Mana Nodes" or whatever, and let that tech give access to ALL of the node creation - this would solve the problem of the AI researching all four of them, and no need to worry about modifying the code (not that it is a big problem). As for the benefit for the player? Who cares? the player already knows how to research one school and get basically whatever spells they want.

This would also reduce the Height of the Tech Tree in General - which is always a goal of mine.

Any thoughts on this? Ok, I have one thought, Aesthetically - it would be horrible to have a dozen or so images in the tech box... but I think that there is a way to solve this by using an off the table tech which is awarded to the player when they research this tech.. just have to figure out how to automatically give that tech.

This detereiorates specialization.

Origionallymagic worked something like this, or at least was generally functioing where "a spell was a spell and that's all she spellt" I like the fact that there are 4 different schools of magic.

I see it as being a bulge in choices and then returning to continual growth. Specialization, in magic, along the lines of each school should be allowed, emphasised, and encouraged.

However, the applications OF those specializations should be available regardless of which path you took. Mages should be available to all schools of magic, just like summoners, archmages, and conjurers. However, if you've chosen necromancy - there shouldnt be a "need" to chose the other schools, unless that is your style of play.

Basically, there should be options for chosing one, maybe two schools and moving on down the tech tree.

There should be perhaps a few techs that require all the schools, representing the "rainbow" of magic, and a playstyle that emphasizes completionism, and variety. The downside is that you're not advancing down the tech tree, but along its perpandicular.

Rewards for specialization should be clear, as should rewards for completionism. And both of which should be found soley within the tech tree itself. Tower of mastery - is a perfect example of those whom are completionists. Simply advancing quicker to late game techs could be the advantage of specialization - or perhaps there could be "upgraded" versions of the understandings of each tech.

I'd not mind seeing things in the mid/late game that were called "Advanced Divination" or "Necromancy Mastry" Tier 2 and 3 of magic schools.

Advantages could be something simple like quicker exp for units with death magic, or divination. Or perhaps a strength bonus to casters. Regardless, each "higher" school of magic specialization should represent a finer understanding of that school, and more robust summons, spells, or casters as a result. Of course - only in fiting with the school of magic.


3 coppers worth that time,
-Scott

 

[Yoshi2942]

While what you say would be very relevent to allowing a player to feel as though they have more specialized choices - It does nothing but encourage the AI to "get stuck" researching Techs that it doesn't need.

The player already can decide that they want to be a necromancer, therefore they need death and Entropy Magic. The Civ likely starts with one or more of these, and therefore they may not even need to research Necromancy to begin with.

Specialization doesn't have to come from the Techs you choose - especially in the case of magic. Just because a civ has the ability to build Nodes of a dozen types - doesn't exactly mean that they have access to a dozen nodes. In the games that I have played, 2-4 Nodes is how many I have access to during the majority of the game.... and once the game gets into the "roll over your opponents to win" part of the game - it no longer matters whether I have to spend 2 turns to research another school of magic (if I wanted to go for ToM victory) -- or more likely, I would trade a tech which the AI absolutely should have gotten 150 turns prior (like Festivals) to some other civ in exchange for 2-3 schools which I hadn't researched yet.

So in short, while allowing specialization, in general, is a great idea - in this situation the forced specialization comes in the form of the number of mana nodes available, and by using multiple techs -- it just slows the AI down from reaching further techs.

 

[Nero's fire]

Firstly, I would like to commend you on this en devour Yoshi. I always enjoy trying out how new tech lines change strategy in a game and if you ever decide to post up your "new" tree I would gladly play through a few games to give my two gil worth.

Secondly, One idea I thought would be neat for the mana nodes is rather then confine them to one or four specific techs, spread them out in the others. Nature could be learned by getting Way of Leaves, Enchantment could be gotten from Smelting, ect... People could still specialize by find the nodes they want and it means that the computers can't make any poor decisions. Honestly I always felt the current four tech nodes was a bit too confining.

Thirdly, I do agree with many of the posters here. I think there might be some problems with the techs coming off religions only techs. I don't think EVERYONE needs to terraform (its going to change anyways in Fire) its useful but not at all critical and in my playthroughs is a terrible micromanagement issue. But I am looking more at Monarchy and Fuedalism. It doesn't seem right to confine those wonders and worse those civics to only a few. The Grigori are the ones I would worry about being diminished by this the most.

Fourthly, OO seems to still be lacking. They don't get any follow up techs to choosing them as a state religion. This doesn't seem balanced when FoL get Baron, Order gets High Priests and Inquisitors. While all branches might not need both High Priests and Inquisitors they should get access to at least one I think.

Fifthly, Zing zing zing went my heartstring

 

[Yoshi2942]

First off - thanks for the Feedback, and I think that your idea of spreading the Node building amongst the other techs is a VERY good idea.. probably the best I have heard/thought of regarding the issue.

Your third point that, and one that many have commented on, that Techs coming off of the religeons may be too limitting -- I find that I like it this way. My concept of how I've been designing things is like this:

OO -- I play OO more frequently than all of the others combined, and between Savarous, Slavery, and the Loonie Bin -- It seems to me to be in line with the strengths of the other Religeons.

Way of the Forests - Pretty much everything that deals with interacting with Nature went here, obviously, and while this path doesn't give some of the wonders and Civics that Wicked and Wise do - this path gives Druids and Werewolves. Werewolves I'd argue are one of the most powerful units in the game, hands down. The ability to Generate an army that will be relevant the entire game, that quickly, is amazing. Druids giving Treants.. Simply amazing summons for patrolling the lands.

Way of Wicked and Wise -- I tried to make these to be two sides of the same coin, straight up evil, and good. Both of these are focussing upon Structure, laws, and man made things - so there are more wonders here than in the other religeous paths, and more priests and such.

Way of Earth -- Tried to stick with the crafting/Technology theme.

The Civics are likely to be moved.. somewhat.. but in general the way they are pictured is fine.. To me, I was trying to emphasize the differences between the religeons and how they influence the society a LOT more than in vanilla FFH.. so yes, there are a LOT more restrictions, but I've been working at trying to balance them -- and I feel that it is working out well.

Cassiel, actually -- to be honest, I find that Cassiel gets a big boost from this tree. True, there are a number of wonders/things that the Grigori don't get access to -- but it is a lot easier to achieve the buildings which are specific to them, and easier to focus upon the Adventurers.

--->> Bleh, bad thought though - if I try to implement the node building into the other techs.. then it may become an issue of Cassiel not being able to build certain Nodes.. I'll have to be careful if I decide to try and implement this.

Anyways, I will wait until after fire is released, see what all has changed - update my tree accordingly, then I'll probably upload a copy of it. If I uploaded now - by time anyone tested it, Fire would be out and my tree would be obsolete.

 

[Yoshi2942]

Change of plans.

I went ahead and zipped up the changes which I have made.

Do not try and install unless you are willing to read these instructions::

1) go to your FFH2 folder and either make a copy of the folder, or rename your current XML folder AND your DLL file.

2) download http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/109168/Alt_Tech_Tree_XML_Folder.rar rar and unrar into the FFH2 folder (or the new folder which you made)

3) play...

THIS folder contains a slighly modified dll file because of some changes to the logic of fireballs which I have toyed with, and by using this it WILL break save games. This is why you needed to make a backup of your dll file.

This folder contains every XML file - I have altered many of them to some degree or another, pretty much all of the changes are to balance gameplay when using this tech tree.

The reason I needed to upload the dll file as well is because the fireball unit xml file was changed and you would get an error upon loading if you didn't use the modified dll file.

All these instructions - and really it is a simple process, but I don't want anyone to come back to me and say "why didn't you tell me it would over-write the default FFH stuff and I deleted the original FFH download and am unable to redownload it so you ruined my life."

 

[QES]

Change of plans.

I went ahead and zipped up the changes which I have made.

Do not try and install unless you are willing to read these instructions::

1) go to your FFH2 folder and either make a copy of the folder, or rename your current XML folder AND your DLL file.

2) download http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/109168/Alt_Tech_Tree_XML_Folder.rar rar and unrar into the FFH2 folder (or the new folder which you made)

3) play...

THIS folder contains a slighly modified dll file because of some changes to the logic of fireballs which I have toyed with, and by using this it WILL break save games. This is why you needed to make a backup of your dll file.

This folder contains every XML file - I have altered many of them to some degree or another, pretty much all of the changes are to balance gameplay when using this tech tree.

The reason I needed to upload the dll file as well is because the fireball unit xml file was changed and you would get an error upon loading if you didn't use the modified dll file.

All these instructions - and really it is a simple process, but I don't want anyone to come back to me and say "why didn't you tell me it would over-write the default FFH stuff and I deleted the original FFH download and am unable to redownload it so you ruined my life."

Might want to mention this in your first post - lest people dont go looking for this information while perusing the thread.
-Qes

 

[Yoshi2942]

I'm not concerned - the only link is right there in the post - It isn't like I made the changes for others to use, it is for myself. But since I was asked for it, I posted it. Besides, Fire will be released this week, and a lot of my work will disappear (infact, I'll remove the upload at that time because it will no longer be of use).

 

[Nero's fire]

One quick fix might be to allow Cassiel a special tech allowing him to get some of the benefits of the expanded religions only techs. It would solve the nodes issue if you wanted to stick some of them behind religions only techs.

I will play around on my own though and give you some more input, but I doubt I will be able to finish a game before Friday but it gives me something to do until then .

 

[Yoshi2942]

lol, enjoy -- I noticed afterwards that the researching may be faster than you are accustomed to. This is because I was playing with my Tech cost formula and I found that if you play on Fast or Normal - the formula leads to early techs being undercosted. Every tech should cost 30 more. Not a big deal though.

Also, you'll notice that there are 10 or so Techs WAAAY off to the right of the tree - they are the ones which I "cut" from the tech tree, unfortunately - a few of them can still be researched; I've not seen the computer research any of them, and they really should be unresearchable - I just haven't made that change.

 

[Nero's fire]

He he, I'll keep that in mind.

 

[Nero's fire]

Vampires can only be built by going through the order. While that is my usual strategy probably not something you intended. Not sure if you moved the Grigori medic from medicine either (though I always felt medicine was fairly useless doubly so if your not good)

Yeah techs are getting acquired pretty fast, I am about to get way of the wise before my second city. Seems a bit early to get it but then again its not quite so useful a religion when you aren't very big.

Some other unit issues:
As far as flavor seems to go Dwarven Druids should probably be moved over to golem working (well flavor as in it should require the Runes obviously golems don't help druiding) makes sense since mostly dwarves go runes

Harlequins require Balsapher to go leaves which doesn't seem right to me

I mentioned earlier that OO seem to get the short end of the stick in your new tech tree, I think in keeping with your mod they should get access to drama and music as a religion only. In reality those are two techs that aren't required by anyone and if the FoL get all the cool nature stuff then it makes sense that OO should get all the culture stuff. Further rationel, consider that the balsapher are the premier theater civ in the game and completely evil and crazy so makes sense why OO gets drama and lets face it OO does have the best theme music.

To be honest I haven't played to far into it. One issue I found is that its quite possibly to get both way of wise and wicked first but then again it could just be the speed but maybe another required tech for both would seperate them out (and they probably still come before they should anyways)

 

[Yoshi2942]

The techs are being acquired fast due to the undercosting that I mentioned.

Vampires - have never even thought about them, I'll have to look into that.

Grigori Medic, didn't move it - I'll look into it.

EDIT -- Ok, I see where the vampires are supposed to go. I'll have to play through and see how it feels before making any decisions on where I will want them to be. Without any targetted background reading - I imagine that someone should be able to go the OO route and come up with vampires, but on the other hand - I don't picture Way of Earth or Forests as applying too directly to vampires. But from what I can remember what I read on Flauros -- The way of Wise and Wicked seem to be quite appropriate for the vampire clan.

As for the Medics - I could move them to Education, but I play Grigori often enought and I never even knew that the medics existed.

EDIT EDIT -- Ok, looking again at the vampires - I will either be moving the vampires to Code of Laws, or move the mansion to Feud. Haven't decided which yet.