Alternative Ages

[Lord Baal]

I'm asking, what would've been the next age of development that Rome (including Greece and the entire empire) could've attained if it and Western Rome had not fallen into the dark ages? Or in other worlds, what follows an Iron Age? If Rome was on the potential cusp of an Steam\Industrial age then maybe it shows that it is the next stage up from the Iron Age? If not, then does that mean there are one or more levels of development need to obtain a Victorian level civilization? Another indicator of Rome's potential Industrial society is through the medical works of Galen. According to a program on the History Channel, his level of medical practice and knowledge wouldn't be matched until WW1!

I wouldn't trust the History Channel if I were you. One of the funniest moments of my life was seeing two consecutive commercials about Himmler that contradicted one another.

Finally a few questions. First does any one know if Rome was close to developing gunpowder and or some type of wire communication such as the telegraph? Second, does a civilization need steam power or a combustion engine to develop an industrial society, or can it use the principles of mass production (say assigning slaves to do one specific task) to be considered industrialized?

In order: No. Yes, some sort of engine is needed, because mass production existed before industrialisation.

Finally, what age are we in? Are we in a Communication Age where mass media and interaction such as the internet has seemingly replaced industrial endeavors? Is it the next step, just an era, or a false perception?

We're referred to mostly as the Post-Modern or Information Age, but I doubt there's an official name for it.

Wouldn't transportation, particularly of troops, be incentive to build a steam powered railroad? After all the Romans spent a lot of their energy in building a large road network for such a purpose.

Sure, once you have the technology for it. Rome didn't. But even if they did, troop transport wasn't a driving force behind rail development anyway. Rails were usually built to get resources from one area to another area quickly - usually coal and ore to manufacturing centres. It would be prohibitively expensive to build rails just for troop transportation.

 

[Naskra]

To build a useful (not a curiosity) steam engine you need precision parts - shafts, bearings, etc. To make these things, a metal lathe is required. The metal-working revolution that produced the lathe was driven by competition among gunsmiths. Simply put: no gunpowder, no steam engine.

 

[Dachs]

I'm asking, what would've been the next age of development that Rome (including Greece and the entire empire) could've attained if it and Western Rome had not fallen into the dark ages? Or in other worlds, what follows an Iron Age? If Rome was on the potential cusp of an Steam\Industrial age then maybe it shows that it is the next stage up from the Iron Age? If not, then does that mean there are one or more levels of development need to obtain a Victorian level civilization?

You're looking at history far too teleologically IMHO. And you didn't answer my question as to the mechanism by which the Empire fails to politically fragment. That tends to be important.

Another indicator of Rome's potential Industrial society is through the medical works of Galen. According to a program on the History Channel, his level of medical practice and knowledge wouldn't be matched until WW1!

Nah, you got it backwards. Galen's ideas on medical science were largely discredited, starting with Vesalius and ending by the mid-19th century, after enjoying a revival during the Renaissance along with everything else Roman.

Finally a few questions. First does any one know if Rome was close to developing gunpowder

No. Nobody's tried experimenting with it. Nobody cared enough, there wasn't a need.

and or some type of wire communication such as the telegraph?

For perspective, the first optical telegraph (think the fire-signals from the Return of the King film going from Minas Tirith to Edoras) used by the Romans was developed during the reign of Theophilos, in the ninth century. Sam Morse is a long way away.

Second, does a civilization need steam power or a combustion engine to develop an industrial society, or can it use the principles of mass production (say assigning slaves to do one specific task) to be considered industrialized?

Uh, what exactly were you thinking of mass producing with slaves?

Wouldn't transportation, particularly of troops, be incentive to build a steam powered railroad? After all the Romans spent a lot of their energy in building a large road network for such a purpose.

There are far too many precursors to the development of a steam engine that can be used in a railroad, dude. Metallurgy ain't even remotely close to where it needs to be.

 

[Tabster]

To build a useful (not a curiosity) steam engine you need precision parts - shafts, bearings, etc. To make these things, a metal lathe is required. The metal-working revolution that produced the lathe was driven by competition among gunsmiths. Simply put: no gunpowder, no steam engine.

I would have to suggest that the same precision parts could have come from the clock/instrument makers, as another route.

EDIT1 : which particular lathe are you refering to?

 

[Naskra]

I would have to suggest that the same precision parts could have come from the clock/instrument makers, as another route.

Theoretically, sure. The Antikythera orrery is an impressive piece of jewelry, may even have run for hours before jamming. I just don't think a steam engine made from hand-forged and hand-fitted parts will do anything but shake itself to bits.

 

[Masada]

I wouldn't trust the History Channel if I were you. One of the funniest moments of my life was seeing two consecutive commercials about Himmler that contradicted one another.

... I would trust it at all.

 

[Tabster]

Theoretically, sure. The Antikythera orrery is an impressive piece of jewelry, may even have run for hours before jamming. I just don't think a steam engine made from hand-forged and hand-fitted parts will do anything but shake itself to bits.

Well, what I was suggesting was that the steam engine built by Newcomen (I have previously spelt this wrong, my apologies) was built before the first modern lathe built by Thiout, a French clockmaker. Having looked into it a bit, it is more complicated than that, but I'd still suggest it was clock/instrument making (pre 1700) which had the more advanced metal working techniques than gunmakers. The hand gun didn't really take off until the wheel-lock, ie clockwork was introduced to guns, for example.

I don't think Newcomen had any type of regulator, so a few ill-fitting parts may have actually acted like a safety valve and enabled pressure to escape before reaching a critical and potentionally explosive level !

What I think you may be refering to is the mass-production of steam-engines of the later Watt-Boulton partnership, which had taken advantage of a new cannon boring tool, which was itself, powered by a steam engine. The problem Watt faced was that Newcomen had use water on top of his cylinder head as a seal, which due to the change in design had to be replaced by a snugger fitting piston/cylinder, which needed the new lathes/borers to make.

So personally, I would have to suggest that the steam engine could have been invented without access to gunpowder, it may be the input from the cannon making industry which made mass production of Watts more powerful engine possible. But, I could imagine, bell-founders* for one, could have possibly been another source for the invention of a scaled up clockmakers lathe.

* I'm refering to our time again, don't know if the Romans had bells, but they could certainly cast bronze.

IIRC Papin, did try to run his engine on gunpowder at one stage, but again I don't see this as being crucial to the devolpment of the steam engine in general.

 

[xchen08]

For perspective, the first optical telegraph (think the fire-signals from the Return of the King film going from Minas Tirith to Edoras) used by the Romans was developed during the reign of Theophilos, in the ninth century. Sam Morse is a long way away.

Fire signals have existed from a long time before that. It was used on the Great Wall, for example, and stories had the Zhou Kings using it half a millenia before that. A heliograph using polished bronze as a mirror is one of those inventions that theoretically could have come about at practically any time, like the stirrup, or heavy plow. Unlike the Steam Engine or a lot of other machines, it doesn't require concurrent advances in metallurgy and precision manufacturing, or social changes. Any large empire would always find rapid communications useful.

 

[Dachs]

Fire signals have existed from a long time before that. It was used on the Great Wall, for example, and stories had the Zhou Kings using it half a millenia before that. A heliograph using polished bronze as a mirror is one of those inventions that theoretically could have come about at practically any time, like the stirrup, or heavy plow. Unlike the Steam Engine or a lot of other machines, it doesn't require concurrent advances in metallurgy and precision manufacturing, or social changes. Any large empire would always find rapid communications useful.

I don't know enough about the actual details of Leon Mathematikos' optical telegraph to be able to discuss how comparatively advanced it was vis-a-vis the glorious and superior ancient Chinese technology, or even whether it actually did use fire signals as opposed to some kind of semaphore like Chappe stations; the point in mentioning it was that the Byzantine state - much less the Roman one - was hardly on the cusp of a development of Morselike telegraph technology. The role of mentioning the system was supposed to be a different, slightly more edifying and amusing, way to convey the same point instead of saying that the Romans and Byzantines had a) essentially no concept of electricity, b) essentially no concept of magnetism, and c) no way of creating the wire necessary for a telegraph or telegraph system.

 

[xchen08]

I don't know enough about the actual details of Leon Mathematikos' optical telegraph to be able to discuss how comparatively advanced it was vis-a-vis the glorious and superior ancient Chinese technology, or even whether it actually did use fire signals as opposed to some kind of semaphore like Chappe stations; the point in mentioning it was that the Byzantine state - much less the Roman one - was hardly on the cusp of a development of Morselike telegraph technology. The role of mentioning the system was supposed to be a different, slightly more edifying and amusing, way to convey the same point instead of saying that the Romans and Byzantines had a) essentially no concept of electricity, b) essentially no concept of magnetism, and c) no way of creating the wire necessary for a telegraph or telegraph system.

The point is that certain developments are the culmination of many forces working in conjunction, while others are independent and can just appear at any time. Some, like the stirrup or heavy plow appeared centuries or more after all the components needed for it were in place. An optical telegraph ,whether heliograph or semaphore is one of these, being a logical development of fire-signals, which have been used for millenia (by many civs other than China, btw). All the technology and concepts needed for it to work were in place in Roman times, ie mirrors, lamps, simplified signal codes, etc. Thus, it seems particularly poorly suited for use as an amusing aside, critically so, if you include fire-signals in the same category.

 

[Tabster]

c) no way of creating the wire necessary for a telegraph or telegraph system.

The Romans didn't have wire ?

It's not very difficult to make by hand, you just need a draw plate and some pliers. Copper or certainly gold could be drawn through bronze, I would have thought. Wire of less than about 3mm thick can be drawn by hand. Over this thickness you would need to use gearing.

Maybe they might have struggled to produce long pieces of wire without inventing a way of handling larger pieces of metal, but if I'm correct the Romans had both gearing and the screw-thread which are the key components of making a draw-bench with a travelling vise for handling thicker wire to begin with and therefore end up with a longer piece at the end of the process.

But over all I'd agree that solving (a)+(b) for the Romans would be such a problem that the wire making(c) just isn't an issue.

 

[Huayna Capac357]

How 'bout:

Nomadic Age (First humans to today's nomadic hunter-gatherers)
Village Age (Sedentary populations, however small and perhaps hunter-gatherer)
City Age (Sedentary agricultural cities like La Tène culture, without a centralized government)
State Age (Clovis unifies the Franks, creating a state, France)
First Expansion Age (expansion out of native area, in my example of France, perhaps in 843 or in 1095)
Far Expansion Age (expansion out of continent or immediate region, such as 1530s with Jacques Cartier)
Industrialization Age (industrialization, 1800s)
Computerization Age (computerization, 1990s)

 

[flyingeye76]

How 'bout:

Nomadic Age (First humans to today's nomadic hunter-gatherers)
Village Age (Sedentary populations, however small and perhaps hunter-gatherer)
City Age (Sedentary agricultural cities like La Tène culture, without a centralized government)
State Age (Clovis unifies the Franks, creating a state, France)
First Expansion Age (expansion out of native area, in my example of France, perhaps in 843 or in 1095)
Far Expansion Age (expansion out of continent or immediate region, such as 1530s with Jacques Cartier)
Industrialization Age (industrialization, 1800s)
Computerization Age (computerization, 1990s)

Not bad! It's compatible to one I've come up with based on the range of a societies' influence (representing advances in transport, military, communication, etc - technologies.) I'll try and elaborate further tomorrow.

 

[Masada]

The Romans didn't have wire ? [...] process [...]

You've got the process correct, but its hard, if not impossible, to make large lengths of wire of uniform grade by hand. He wasn't referring to the ability to make wire, I presume it has more to do with length than anything. From my understanding before the invention of a mechanical process for doing it a master craftsmen could maybe do thirty feet in a day of continuous work. That was about the maximum practical length possible. That last bit is from memory, I don't have my big industrial revolutions processes book on hand which lays in exhaustive detail the innovations in various fields and how they interacted with other fields.

But over all I'd agree that solving (a)+(b) for the Romans would be such a problem that the wire making(c) just isn't an issue.

Try making a 100km's of it the way you suggested

 

[Tabster]

Try making a 100km's of it the way you suggested

It wouldn't have to be an empire sized telegraph system to be a telegraph system, it could have just covered Rome (10km's) or even a part of Rome (1km's), but basically at the end of my post I was agreeing that telegraph was way beyond the Romans caperbilities, before the wire making aspect was even considered.

Most of what I've posted is from memory, the idea that gunsmiths had a hand in the devolpment of the lathe was something new to me so I checked it out, that's when I found out I was spelling "Newcomen" wrong!

I'm a craftsman by trade and work with metal and stone (I have to build my own machines sometimes!) so I pull wire through draw-plates and hand turn on lathes and things like that as part of my life, and I'm just interested in these things and machines in general. I like to explore old abandoned mines, so this has given me an interest in mining history.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, my poor language skills doesn't help I know. I would have loved to have learnt that Savery had replaced the head of water in his pipe with a piston and then went on to make an engine, or gunsmiths pre-1700 were better craftsmen than I'd given them credit for, as I've already learnt so much from you and others on this forum, you personly have kindly answered my questions in the past. Anyway, I'd rather leave you a than a

 

[Masada]

It wouldn't have to be an empire sized telegraph system to be a telegraph system, it could have just covered Rome (10km's) or even a part of Rome (1km's), but basically at the end of my post I was agreeing that telegraph was way beyond the Romans caperbilities, before the wire making aspect was even considered.

I know, but even C, you must agree would have been difficult on any large scale.

I'm a craftsman by trade and work with metal and stone (I have to build my own machines sometimes!) so I pull wire through draw-plates and hand turn on lathes and things like that as part of my life, and I'm just interested in these things and machines in general. I like to explore old abandoned mines, so this has given me an interest in mining history.

There's some awesome technical histories of the Industrial Revolution floating around, some of the better ones cover the evolution of the steam engine, looms, pumps and the like in exhaustive detail showing you where each and every technical innovation came from and where in turn it came from and so on. You come to realize how difficult it was to pull together all the components from a variety of sources to make a final product!

I'm a craftsman by trade and work with metal and stone (I have to build my own machines sometimes!) so I pull wire through draw-plates and hand turn on lathes and things like that as part of my life, and I'm just interested in these things and machines in general. I like to explore old abandoned mines, so this has given me an interest in mining history.

I understand completely.

gunsmiths pre-1700 were better craftsmen than I'd given them credit for

In workmanship some of them are to die for! I still marvel at how exactly they managed to chase the barrel with so much silver or gold!

 

[Tabster]

In workmanship some of them are to die for! I still marvel at how exactly they managed to chase the barrel with so much silver or gold!

Maybe they had years of practice on those fancy suits of armour, before armour was made obsolete by the gun.

Yes, I agree about the wire, but still think they would have solved that problem before the solving of the mystery of electromagnetism. I think one reason the later Europeans wanted wire was to make chainmail armour!

Thanks for the ideas about the books.

 

[Dachs]

Yeah, Masada basically covered what I was thinking about - sure wire itself might not be that difficult to produce, but I doubt the Romans had the ability to make the amount of wire they would have needed for a telegraph system to cover any appreciable distance. Mostly just added points trying to emphasize how unlikely the whole thing would've been.

The point is that certain developments are the culmination of many forces working in conjunction, while others are independent and can just appear at any time. Some, like the stirrup or heavy plow appeared centuries or more after all the components needed for it were in place. An optical telegraph ,whether heliograph or semaphore is one of these, being a logical development of fire-signals, which have been used for millenia (by many civs other than China, btw). All the technology and concepts needed for it to work were in place in Roman times, ie mirrors, lamps, simplified signal codes, etc. Thus, it seems particularly poorly suited for use as an amusing aside, critically so, if you include fire-signals in the same category.

Thanks for teaching me how a sense of humor works.

How 'bout:

Nomadic Age (First humans to today's nomadic hunter-gatherers)
Village Age (Sedentary populations, however small and perhaps hunter-gatherer)
City Age (Sedentary agricultural cities like La Tène culture, without a centralized government)
State Age (Clovis unifies the Franks, creating a state, France)
First Expansion Age (expansion out of native area, in my example of France, perhaps in 843 or in 1095)
Far Expansion Age (expansion out of continent or immediate region, such as 1530s with Jacques Cartier)
Industrialization Age (industrialization, 1800s)
Computerization Age (computerization, 1990s)

That, ah, doesn't even apply to France, really, much less most societies. Outside of kinda glossing over very large portions of history (where exactly does Roman Gaul fit in? Or even pre-Roman Gaul?), wouldn't there be another "Village Age" after Clovis' territorial expansion of the Salian Frankish/Merovingian state? How do the Expansion Ages fit in with societies that don't expand like that? (Interesting definition of the French "native area" as well. Not to mention the apparent connection between the French society and Iron Age Gallic/La Tène.)

There's a thread from a few months ago about this, but trying to classify the history of anything more than a given region (at most) in some sort of universal 'age' system usually ends up having so many exceptions to the rule that the rule becomes, well, not a particularly good rule.

 

[flyingeye76]

I wondering if some sort of a ratio index might be applied for a better way to rate a society's development? Say-

Tech level X Influence = Civ Index

That's probably a crude measurement but something along those lines may work.

 

[Huayna Capac357]

That, ah, doesn't even apply to France, really, much less most societies. Outside of kinda glossing over very large portions of history (where exactly does Roman Gaul fit in? Or even pre-Roman Gaul?), wouldn't there be another "Village Age" after Clovis' territorial expansion of the Salian Frankish/Merovingian state? How do the Expansion Ages fit in with societies that don't expand like that? (Interesting definition of the French "native area" as well. Not to mention the apparent connection between the French society and Iron Age Gallic/La Tène.)

I started with France so I was like, ah well, might as well stay with France. Though I see my example is ********.

It might work better on China:

Nomadic Age (1.5 Million BC- 7000 BC)
Village Age (7000 BC- 3000 BC)
City Age (3000 BC- 1500 BC)
State Age (1500 BC- c. 140 BC, beginning of reign of Wu Di, first real imperial emperor)
First Expansion Age (c. 140 BC- c. 1400 AD)
Far Expansion Age (1400 AD- expansion out of China, with trading in Africa, Southeast Asia, etc.)
Industrialization Age (Maoist era)
Computerization Age (Nowadays)

Though this is also ridiculous, as China made leaps and bounds during the Tang and Song and certainly reached a different age in them.