Alternative History: "Preussen" at the Black Sea?

[Kyriakos]

Yes, they held it until 800 Byzantine soldiers took control of the walls ala Trojan Horse and locked out the crusaders.

Cause, you know, the walls were just something crusaders broke through :facepalm:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexios_Strategopoulos

 

[Domen]

Here is Burzenland (grey colour) - territory originally granted to the Teutonic Order by Hungarian king in 1211 (first knights arrived in 1212):

The capital city of the Teutonic Order's State in Burzenland was the city of Kronstadt, Latin: Corona (today Brașov in Romania):

Królestwo Węgier = Kingdom of Hungary

And here is Ziemia Chełmińska (blue colour) - territory originally granted to the Teutonic Order by Polish dukes in 1226 (first knights arrived in 1228):

They expanded into Plemiona Pruskie (Prussian Tribes - dark green colour). In 1283 the conquest of Prussia was completed.

In case of scenario in which the Teutonic Order is allowed to stay in Burzenland, they would expand into Kumanowie (Cumans).

The Teutonic Order united itself with the Livonian Order (which conquered Pagan Baltic tribes in what is today Latvia and southern Estonia):

The Livonian Order adopted the monastic rule of the Teutonic Order, but preserved its own administration.

As the result of that unification, the powerful Monastic State of the Teutonic Order was formed:

Small Teutonic territory in the west is Neumark (bought by the Teutonic Order from Brandenburg):

Sources for maps posted above:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbqWxM8_rUQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65Yh2WjNAJw

 

[Domen]

The map above - with the exception of Neumark - shows the borders of the Teutonic Order's State in period 1283 - 1308.

After that (after year 1308), the following temporary territorial gains of the Teutonic Order's State took place:

Year gained by the Teutonic Knights - name of territory (year lost by the Teutonic Knights):

1309 - Polish Pomerelia (lost in 1466)
1329 - Land of Dobrzyn (lost in 1343)
1329 - Land of Słupsk (lost in 1341)
1332 - Cuiavia Region (lost in 1343)
1352 - Land of Dobrzyn (lost in 1355)
1382 - Land of Wizna (lost in 1402)
1384 - Land of Zawkrze (lost in 1399)
1392 - Land of Dobrzyn (lost in 1405)
1398 - Samogitia (lost between 1409 and 1411)
1398 - Gotland (lost in 1408)
1402 - Neumark (lost in 1455)
1408 - Land of Zawkrze (lost in 1411)
1409 - Land of Dobrzyn (lost in 1410)

 

[r16]

am a reads-one-book/rants-on-and-on kind of a guy . Read James Mitchener's Poland , ı know "The Tatars numbered just 2,000." was a Polish propaganda .

 

[Yeekim]

Reminds me of my CK2 game, where "Sons of Kaleva" have most of de jure Tartaria under their control in 1100.

 

[Domen]

ı know "The Tatars numbered just 2,000." was a Polish propaganda.

1) Tatars were in the Lithuanian army only because those Tatars were citizens of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania at that time.

2) Entire Lithuanian army escaped from the battlefield after the first clash (except for 3 units from Smolensk, which were Russian not Tatar).

3) Those Lithuanian Tatars were refugees from the Golden Horde (who escaped to Lithuania during the civil war in the Golden War) under Jalal al-Din Khan ibn Tokhtamysh - they quite did not have the demographic potential to mobilize more than 1,000 or at the very most 2,000 warriors.

2) Entire Lithuanian army escaped from the battlefield after the first clash

Some people claim it was a feigned retreat. But a feigned retreat of virtually entire army is a thing which would be pointless anyway. Moreover, some Teutonic units chased the Lithuanians up to the very Lithuanian camp. Some other Teutonic units outflanked and tried to encircle the Polish army in the meantime.

Even Polish King Jogaila was personally ednangered by a Teutonic attack, and that's because the Lithuanian escape totally exposed one flank of his army:

(...) During the battle itself the royal pennon was stationed in front of king Władysław II. However, during one of the attacks launched by the Knights of the Order, it had to be furled hastily, in order that the enemy would not be able to pick out the person of the monarch. Consequently the king and the small unit accompanying him escaped notice. However one of the guest knights fighting for the Order, the Lusatian knight Dypold von Kóckritz, did notice the king and launched a single-handed attack. It is possible that he recognized the king because he had frequently served on embassies of the Order to Cracow, or perhaps he simply noticed the king's horse and armour. Von Kóckritz was first wounded by Jagiełło himself and then killed by the king's secretary Bishop Zbigniew of Oleśnica. (...)

(...) The Court Banner was stationed towards the rear of Jagiełło's order of battle, behind the Banners of Lesser Poland and Halych-Ruthenia. When the king seemed threatened by the attack of a group of enemy under the command of Ulrich von Jungingen, and the young Royal Secretary Zbigniew of Oleśnica sent a request that the Banner should bring help to the small group defending the king, it was turned down, according to some sources by Mikołaj Kiełbasa 'Sausage' one of the antesignani (i.e. knights fighting in the front ranks) of the Court Banner. Had the Banner obeyed its orders, its advance would undoubtedly have brought the position of Jagiełło to the attention of the enemy. As it was, the royal pennon was furled in time, and an untimely attack was avoided. Only von Kóckritz decided on his one-man attack. (...)

================================

Regarding the Lithuanian escape at Grunwald - it was most probably not a feigned retreat, but the Teutonic army also commited a mistake.

Swedish hstorian Sven Ekdahl found a letter written to the Grand Master in year 1416 or 1417, and in that letter there is such an excerpt:

"(...) everyone will eagerly chase the escaping ones, just like it happened during the Great Battle. (...)"

Then author of the letter suggests the Grand Master to always order his men to stand still, and to send only a few units to chase the escaping enemy.

There is no suggestion, that the Lithuanian retreat was feigned. There is only suggestion, that too many Teutonic units started to chase them.

That said, Sven Ekdahl himself is the one who suggested - some 30 years ago - that the Lithuanian retreat was feigned.

But it seems, that he misinterpreted the sources he found. Because this letter doesn't really suggest this.

 

[r16]

evil CIA however got James Mitchener to write down 20 000 and he even gets an "invented" Prussian to kill the "Black Knight" with 75 dead Teutons ringed around him as a cavalry charge impediment .

 

[Domen]

he even gets an "invented" Prussian to kill the "Black Knight" with 75 dead Teutons ringed around him as a cavalry charge impediment.

What "invented" Prussian and why would a Prussian kill his fellow Teutons?

Christianized Prussians were a great part if not the bulk of Teutonic Order's armies.

 

[r16]

so that he can link the Nazis final solution with this brooding German thing about killing people Right and Left . See , the Teuton who kills the Black Knight is the ancestor of some Prussian in the SS who handles his part of the Final Solution . "It's in their blood." and so on ... And the Black Knight guy is of course some Polish dude , making a wall with the mace .

 

[Domen]

What Polish Black Knight are you talking about r16? Do you mean Zawisza the Black?:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zawisza_Czarny

But he wasn't killed by the Teutonic Knights. He was killed by the Ottoman Turks:

In 1428, Zawisza, with his retinue as a commander of light horse banner of 500 horsemen, joined the forces of Sigismund in the king's war against the Ottoman Turks. During that disastrous campaign he fought the Turks at the Siege of Golubac on the Danube in modern-day Serbia. Sigismund army was defeated by the Turkish forces. They had to retreat across the Danube, with only a few boats to ferry the troops over to safety. Zawisza's banner was guarding the retreating army. Being a man of importance, he was personally sent for by king Sigismund. He allegedly refused to retreat, disheartened by king's apparent cowardice. He was either killed in combat or executed in Turkish captivity.

 

[Domen]

Year 1454 - liberation of Toruń / Thorn from Teutonic Order's hands (reenactment):


Link to video.

 

[r16]

the Black Knight is such a cool literary device , every novel writer has to have one -with invention in case of need .

 

[Domen]

Zawisza was called Black because his armour was blackened - IIRC - something like this:

Alternative version is that he had deep black hair.

Anyway - there is such a saying to this day: "Polegać na kimś jak na Zawiszy" ("To rely on somebody like on Zawisza").

 

[ghidut]

In the 1200s in territories north of the Danube - north of Bulgaria - there lived the nomadic Cumans, who were among the last Pagans of Europe.

In 1211 Hungarian King Andrew II invited the Teutonic Order to the area called Burzenland (Land of Bors), near the Hungarian-Cuman border. The purpose of inviting the Teutonic Order was of course to help the Hungarians in their fight against Pagan Cumans. But in 1225 Hungarian King expelled the T.O. from his lands, and that's why it was invited to Land of Chełmno in Northern Poland in 1228 (where they started the conquest of Pagan Prussians and Lithuanians).

During their short presence in the Land of Bors, the Teutonic Order started to bring in settlers from the Holy Roman Empire to their new realm, as well as settlers from other territories. German settlers from the HRE became known later as the Transylvanian Saxons (even though most of the settlers from the HRE actually came from Franconia and only a smaller group came from Saxony), and survived in that area as an ethnic minority until the 20th century.

The Teutonic Order was invited to the Burzenland by Hungarian king and Hungarian king wanted to see the Teutonic Knights as his subjects. The Teutonic Knights had quite a different point of view and planned to establish their own, independent state in the area (like they later did in Prussia and Livonia). This is why in 1224 the Teutonic Order started to seek support from the Pope, and wanted the Pope to recognize their independence from Hungary. Hungarian King Andrew II quickly realized what was going on, and in 1225 he expelled the Teutonic Order from his realm, before it managed to grow powerful enough to oppose him.

During their relatively short presence in the Burzenland, the Teutonic Order managed to establish numerous strongholds and towns, which provided a good basis for establishing a full-fledged state and a good source of manpower for future expansion. In the map below is the Teutonic Order's state in 1224:

I wonder what prospects for expansion it would have had, had it not been dismantled by king Andrew in 1225 ???

Cumans - just like Prussians - were also divided for many tribes. But I suppose conquering such nomadic people would be more difficult.

In the conquest of Prussians by the Teutonic Order crucial support role was played by European crusaders - mainly from German and Polish states.

I wonder if in this territory they could also count for a large-scale support provided by crusaders?

A more detaled map of Burzenland, with exact places where Teutonic Order's strongholds and towns were established (and the list of their names):

I can already imagine the Battle of Southern Grunwald - Byzantine Empire (or maybe Hungary or Turks?) vs the Teutonic Order.

In alternative history, of course. Because in reality King Andrew ruined everything!

the cumans held that territory before Hungarians! When they arrive in europe they found ther Glad , Gelou , Asan and Barbath! they was proto bulgaric tribe from bulgar to don same place to kipchak tribe, estic cuman the Black Cuman ,Black Hats (Kushma), or wild Cumans.After then magyar have trouble bicause cumans tribe take the rule Like Ladislau ,Hunyadi , Matheyas Corvin the son of Hunyadi.....The black hats ruler Tokomer , Tochomerius , Toktomir nephew of batu khan and father of Basarabs Dinasty .They with nogai tribe put down Hungary army then give rulers of east europe .First they make Fagaras , Almas ,And Hatzeg county then severin ....County by county they retake all country from magyars .They are the last , lost nomadic pagan tribe who europeans named tatars , the rest of the Golden Horde and now formed countries like Romania Serbia , Bulgaria ,Moldabvia, armenia georgia kazachstan etc.................and all , by the will of one illiterate boy named Temujin

 

[ghidut]

Zawisza was called Black because his armour was blackened - IIRC - something like this:

Alternative version is that he had deep black hair.

Anyway - there is such a saying to this day: "Polegać na kimś jak na Zawiszy" ("To rely on somebody like on Zawisza").

The Black armor must meet the cumans in his voyage

 

[r16]

ı love the search engine these guys have . The one at CFC limited to the latest 300 posts and so on .

you know the only Polish related thing to happen here in Turkey is the flight of some Congregation member to Greek Cypriots and his only reported crime is being too cozy with some Polish students sent by EU visiting the city he was in . Why don't these people write it full ? Is he(?) implying the Kuman people (who are much necessary for the formerly official State narrative , by giving the genes for the blue eyes and blond/blonde hair to Turkic people) are also responsible for the Poles ? Which one is a bigger crime , being Turk or Pole ?

 

[Hamilton321]

I think that regardless of how successful they were that the modern history of europe would have been very different. I don't know an incredible amount about eastern european history but I see at least some of the implications.