Am I progressing too slow?

[Bayern14]

So, It's 1715 AD and I'm just now researching gunpowder. This is my first game on Noble, although I've had the game for approximately a year or two I've only just recently started becoming addicted.

These are my cities:

Karakorum -15 (start city)
Ning-hisa - 10
Shangkian - 14
Beshbalik - 13
Khoisan - 10
Turfan -10

I've also recently captured two (well three, New York defected to Montezuma after I did the dirty work. ) from my continental rival Roosevelt.
Boston - 6
Philadelphia - 7

I have a good standing with Montezuma, as I did before I declared war on Roosevelt. But, the other civs from the rest of the world recently came into contact with me.

I have a save provided and I would appreciate it very much if the veterans here would take an assessment of my current situation and tell me how I'm doing.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Refar]

I cant look at the save right now....

What stirkes me from the Screenshot, is that all your cities are unhappy.

Why that ? War Wearines ? Not enought buildings/resosurces ?

What ever the reason - you need to do something about it. Be it just use slacery to whipp away some whiners. Those dudes eat, slow down your growth and contribute nothing.
As you probably have some troops from the war - Monarchy could help as well.

If you really have no idea how to fight unhappy -> Caberts "Ways into Happiness"

 

[Bayern14]

Yea it was some serious war weariness. I ended the war with Roosevelt about 10 turns after this and it made all of my cities happy again, but then Caesar declared war right after i got my economy back on track. Then my computer crashed and i had to start back at this save lol.

 

[BalbanesBeoulve]

1715 for gunpowder is very late. You could be up to infantry by now.

 

[krille]

You should probably have won the game by now (on Noble), so yeah, your progress is slow. But as long as you're winning it's cool. Are those your only cities? What map size are you playing at (and what game speed)?

 

[Grawss]

I call BS. Nobody gets a good standing with montezuma. Nobody.

 

[s.bernbaum]

I call BS. Nobody gets a good standing with montezuma. Nobody.

Actually, I usually get in good with old Monty. If he is one of my neighbors, I get open borders early and then flood him with missionaries, make a few good trades, perhaps even gift him something, unasked. If anyone declares war on me, I ask Monty to join in on my side. He's always ready for a fight so he says yes, occasionally after a bribe but usually for nothing. After the war goes on a bit, we're best buddies. If no one declares war on me, I'll declare on somebody and invite Monty in on my side - same result. If I am not really ready for a war, I'll declare on someone too far away to actually fight with, then again invite Monty in. It's all the same to him! Once we are buddies (ie he is "Friendly"), he is my attack dog. I send him out to make war on anyone who is getting too big. He's always ready to attack!

Of course, now and then he attacks me early before I can get in good with him. In that case he is soon history!

 

[BalbanesBeoulve]

I call BS. Nobody gets a good standing with montezuma. Nobody.

I've had Alex and Shaka vote me in to an AP diplo victory, so anything is possible.

 

[Grawss]

Actually, I usually get in good with old Monty. If he is one of my neighbors, I get open borders early and then flood him with missionaries, make a few good trades, perhaps even gift him something, unasked. If anyone declares war on me, I ask Monty to join in on my side. He's always ready for a fight so he says yes, occasionally after a bribe but usually for nothing. After the war goes on a bit, we're best buddies. If no one declares war on me, I'll declare on somebody and invite Monty in on my side - same result. If I am not really ready for a war, I'll declare on someone too far away to actually fight with, then again invite Monty in. It's all the same to him! Once we are buddies (ie he is "Friendly"), he is my attack dog. I send him out to make war on anyone who is getting too big. He's always ready to attack!

Of course, now and then he attacks me early before I can get in good with him. In that case he is soon history!

If only he didn't drop out of the tech race so far. I usually enjoy having him in a game, but not right next to me. If we get different religions, he turns into a time-bomb. The next thing I know there's a stack of 50 elephants on my doorstep ready to smash whatever gunpowder units I have garrisoned there.

Montezuma is a force to be reckoned with; not because he's any good at war, but because he latches onto someone and cripples them with war weariness.

 

[Bayern14]

I call BS. Nobody gets a good standing with montezuma. Nobody.

Just check the save... I got open borders early, didn't found a religion because I didn't feel like dealing with the "Heathen religion" diplo penalty, and I got him to join me in a war against Roosevelt for 1000g. The mutual war struggle gave me +4 i do believe.

And to the as long as your winning comment... I'm not winning Mansa Musa has me beat by a good 500 points if i remember correctly.

And since I am progressing very slowly, what can I do to up it in my future games?

 

[Gumbolt]

That looks pretty slow start to me. Im not sure how the Americans got there 3rd/4th city so close to your capital. When did you get your second city? How did the Americans manage to build a city in the middle of your empire???

Im of the opinion you should have taken out the American cities before you reached 1ad. What was your start build for your first city?? Worker worker settler? Warrior worker settler? Did you try chopping forest to speed up settler build time? (Need bronze working for this)

I am concerned your still building court houses/ macemen. These should have been built much earlier. Especially as you have only built 5 cities.

When i first started I built about 6-8 cities and stopped. I soon learned that you have to expand early to 3-5 cities. Most of my cities beyond first 6-8 are captured AI cities. I link up copper as soon as i can and attack with 4-5 axemen. if im lucky this is before 1000bc. Slavery and whipping help this.

I wouldnt worry too much you have to play the game to improve.

Just expand early keeping science around 30-40% min. Build lots of cottages. Civ 4 cottages are king over irrigation.

Anyway enough from me )

 

[Polobo]

One thing I see in this particular map would have been to build A LOT more workers and maybe even adopt serfdom for a while and clear out that jungle, placing commerce (i.e., cottage spamed) cities on all that nice green land. They way your empire played out all those cities (2-3) would have been in the middle of your existing ring of cities plus Los Angeles would not be there.

Also, if you placed a city between Karkahum and Turfan you would have had a solid defense line of cities, from which you create additional lines until you hit the southern coast (by the time you got four cities you should have iron working and the jungle should be the second layer. Immediately followed by the southern coast since those will almost certainly pay for themselves in the short run especially as the jungle cottages are growing).

 

[Bayern14]

I never thought about chopping for faster settlers. Such a noon lol. 6-3 cities explains a lot. I kept reading about fewer, quality cities so I only built a couple of them initially. I proceeded clockwise around the coast because two if those cities were barb that I took over. I was keeping the jungle for the defensive bonuses but I guess cottage spam is more important.

One more question. Why is 30-40% research ok? Won't that put me behind tech wise even more??

 

[Gumbolt]

Each city has a certain upkeep a turn. The more cities you build the higher this is. The further a city is from your capital the higher this is. That is why you need cottages to build the commerce in your city. If you can find resources like gold/silver or gems early on this help. Cottages take time to grow. You do need to make sure the city is using the cottage land for it to grow. I suggested 30-40% as this allows you to develop new technologies.

I think the reason your science has been so slow on current game is due to
1. lack of cottages.
2. Amount of forest/jungle on land (Chop chop and chop away)
3. Inability to expand your empire beyond 7 cities. (On a domination game i could have 50 cities by 1720ad on a huge map.)
4. lack of workers working the land. early on more workers than cities is fine as your empire will expand. More Jungle/forest= more workers. Jungle staunts city growth and provides enemy defence when attacking.

At the start:
I normally build worker, worker, settler. The second worker chops a forest to speed up second worker. Then both workers chop a forest for the settler. The knock on effect is huge as the 2 workers can then chop for another worker or settler. You will at some point need some warriors to stop archers nabbing your cities. I normally build around 3-4 cities before 1500-2000bc. (You will need to chop a lot of forest or build workboats on sea tiles for this) If your planning on linking up copper to attack an enemy you could happily build 3 cities. Hook up copper and produce lots of axemen. Chopping forest and slavery will produce 4-5 axemen in no time. If you attack early the Ai will only have archers for defence. Dont be afraid to lose 1-2 axemen to take a city. Be wary of chariots roaming!!

Enough said. Start a new game and see how you fair.

 

[Bayern14]

Thanks that cleared a lot of things up for me. Is research directly proportional to the amount of gold you are producing from the economy? I notice they are percentages and was just wondering if producing more gold produced more tech flasks.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

More cities is a trade off. They can run your economy into the ground if acquired too quickly, BUT once a city is up to speed it gives more than it costs. In the long run, many cities beats a few cities.

The two major things that should slow down your expansion are the possibility of being attacked, and strikes. Usually I wouldn't go past 4-6 cities depending on level unless I have currency (really code of laws and monarchy help a lot too). Currency is a great warmonger tech because it lets you build wealth and continue expanding much longer than you could otherwise. If you start getting too big, take peace, burn a golden age, and mass up on courthouses + whatever improves the economy you're running. You don't have to war to pull that off though, this can also be done with peaceful (but aggressive) settler expansion. The optimal tactic will vary based on your civ, the AI's civ, and distance. There are some people on emperor that can get 10 cities peacefully.

Just be sure to fog bust to deal with barbs, or they'll screw you. I just use archers, but many will tell you getting axes/chariots out is better. If you can in time (based on difficultly level and odds of seeing either bronze or horses), it IS better. Just know that if you put your archers out in the fog ahead of time and fortify them, barbs pretty much can't kill them.

As for specific advice, i'm going to load your game and see.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Your infrastructure could use more work...you have too few workers. What's killing you right now is WW with roosy. Exactly how long have you been at war with this guy? The rest of the world kind of hates you, too.

Easy on the war weariness in your future games. Your empire isn't bad but try to expand so that it cuts off the AI expanding in your territory. That way if they try to pass through you can just close borders lol.

Your top 2 priorities here are ending the war and keeping good relations with monty...he's all you have. I'd recommend suing for peace as soon as monty does. Then you need to catch up in tech.

 

[Gumbolt]

You may also want to check your working the resources around your cities.

Oh if you reach 50 cities by 1720 ad you should in theory win the game by domination.

Thats the grand difference. 50 cities can produce seven times more science than 7 cities can. Same for military.

You may want to look at city specilisation.

Production cities - Primarily used for military (high production, low city growth) You will find for an early war you wont need a barracks. You will be producing so many axemen that a few will gain experience through battle and killing barb archers. Bit like catapults. You bombard city defences to zero then weaken defences with 2-3 catapults. Losing 1 or 2 catapults will save other units. Cheap to replace.

Food farms - Cities with a huge excess of food can be used as great people farms. Normally these cities with have 2-3+ food resources. A good great people farm may have 7+ specialists.

Cottage farms - These are cities with lots of grassland. perhaps also a food resource. You will probably cottage all the grassland/plains. Naturally you will probably want to work any resources like rice, wheat etc.

Tip is only build a building if it will serve a purpose. I generally build barracks in high production cities that produce military. I only build temples where needed. Same for markets and banks. I will normally have at least 2-3 cities producing units as my empire grows. if i fall behind the AI i will set most cities building units to catch up. if your weak the Ai will attack you.

 

[Gumbolt]

Any update on this game?? Dont give up yet!!!

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Any update on this game?? Dont give up yet!!!

Spoiler :

He's in bad shape though. It might not be un-winnable, but it is going to be very, very hard. He's got WW up the wazzu, but worse than that is the fact that Rome is on the way over with a mild SoD or two. Seafood will likely get pillaged to hell, as he has no navy and really no time to get anything that will hold up to the frigates Rome has. Absolutely everyone else in the world hates him and monty, but betraying monty is out of the question in the near future, because monty has ridiculous SoD's.

Diplo is out, space is unlikely. I guess maybe if he can stay afloat, tech well, and fight really strategically well he'd have a shot at domination or time, assuming he could keep the AI out of space that way.