Am I Stupid For Not Returning This Game?

[aquavit]

I'm sorry Aquavit, but I find it impossible to believe you when you say you have never had a crash. I'd just about believe you'd never seen a blue screen of death before, but other lock ups and freezes? No.

Civ 4 is no worst than most software at release. There is a significant minority of people who's games don't work to any satisfactory extent, but this is more or less the same for any game shortly after release. That is simply how the system works, whether you approve of it or not. Eventually it will be patched into a condition where it should work for almost all people, but that will take time. At least you can be confident that Firaxis will keep patching until it works, whereas many other companies wouldn't.

Fair enough, I'm sure that my computer has crashed in the past. I really meant that I've never had a crash to a blue screen of death before.

You really think so? Even if it no worse, is it wrong to expect a working game these days? Especially from the good developers like Firaxis?

 

[DemonDeLuxe]

In addition, you agreed to a binding contract (in the USA anyways) that said you won't sue for more than you paid.

U.S. jurisdiction, gotta love it

Over here in Germany, it's nothing new to receive, along with programs and games, EULAs that you can just as well throw into the dustbin since they are invalid in so many respects that they aren't worth the paper on which they are written. Yes, in the EULA of CIV4 can be written that I'm not allowed to have a copy of the CD/DVD (I mean: an image of the original), but German law says otherwise (and rightly so), so "Nice attempt, folks".

I cannot imagine that any company would be able to have a "binding contract" that forbids suing it in case it's product causes any real damage (e.g. they spread a virus with the disc and cause harm to other companies).

 

[Steelsmith]

Saying "the game doesn't work on my computer, so therefore it's a buggy piece of crap" is just as ridiculous as saying "the game runs fine on my computer, so therefore it's perfect." People also seem unable to distinguish a bug in the code from a hardware incompatibility. There have been times in the past where a "bug" in a game turned out to be a flaw in the hardware driver.

There are sooo many different hardware configurations out there, that it is unrealistic to expect a software developer to test against every possible configuration. Bottom line is, if you want to guarantee that the game will run perfectly, you have two options. Find out what the game designers are testing on, and buy that exact computer; or buy an XBox. The reason it's so much easier to develop a console game is that the developer knows exactly what hardware it will be running on. [Disclaimer: I'm a software developer, so I'm very familiar with the "it works on my box" syndrome.]

Furthermore, I hope anyone who uses the words "class action" in this kind of thread are making a joke. Any lawyer you approached with such a notion would laugh you out of his office. If the game doesn't work for you, return it to the store you bought it from for a refund. The only games that can't be returned are MMOGs. If you want to sue for mental anguish because you're deprived of one of the best strategy games out there, then you've got issues that may require professional help.

That said, I'm surprised at the number of people who are experiencing problems, and I have no doubt that these problems are more widespread than they should be. If you're frustrated by these problems, then rant on. I would. But any talk of a class-action suit just makes you look silly.

 

[Efexeye]

If the game doesn't work for you, return it to the store you bought it from for a refund. The only games that can't be returned are MMOGs.

This is patently untrue, at least in the US. Almost every retailer has a policy of not accepting returns on opened media/software. They have to, otherwise, people would buy the game/DVD, burn it, and return it, therefore never having to pay for anything.

Who still accepts returns on video games? Gamestop and Electronics Boutique stopped doing it in the 90's.

 

[Fanny Brice]

Class action lawsuit... too funny. You guys are all bluster. Why don't one of you go out and research what it will take for a classaction lawsuit and see if it is worth it.

The same talk was spreading around here with the botched releases of the first CivIII and then PTW and then Conquests.

Stop blustering and do something about it if you really want to spout off and hold firm to this notion. Otherwise you are just blowing steam and you should get over it.

 

[Steelsmith]

This is patently untrue, at least in the US. Almost every retailer has a policy of not accepting returns on opened media/software. They have to, otherwise, people would buy the game/DVD, burn it, and return it, therefore never having to pay for anything.

It's not "patently untrue", though perhaps it's not universally true either. I have never had a problem returning a computer game (or any other software) that simply didn't work on my computer. I once returned a game simply because it was a crappy game. In that case, the box quoted glowing reviews from various websites, and when I actually went to those websites, they all gave the game very low marks. So I returned it and got Civ3 instead.

My guess is that if someone bought the game, and cannot get it to work on their computer, they would be able to return it to the store they bought it from. YMMV of course. Oh, and yes, I live in the U.S.

 

[Efexeye]

It's not "patently untrue", though perhaps it's not universally true either. I have never had a problem returning a computer game (or any other software) that simply didn't work on my computer. I once returned a game simply because it was a crappy game. In that case, the box quoted glowing reviews from various websites, and when I actually went to those websites, they all gave the game very low marks. So I returned it and got Civ3 instead.

My guess is that if someone bought the game, and cannot get it to work on their computer, they would be able to return it to the store they bought it from.

Your guess is wrong. Do you have a specific example? Was this phantom return sometime in 1987? NO ONE accepts returns. It's printed on the receipt, and they'll tell you in the store. If they let you EXCHANGE the game, it'll be for another copy of the same game. Specs don't matter- it's YOUR job to make sure your system meets the minimums, not the retailers.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but, dude, you're wrong. No one takes returns anymore.

No one.

 

[Psyringe]

I hereby propose Godwin's law of video game releases:

1. No matter how good the game is: as the discussion about it carries on, the probability of someone suggesting a class action lawsuit against the developers or publishers approaches 1.

2. Once such a suggestion is made, the thread has outlived its usefulness.

To the persion who mentioned it: Currently, buying a game always involves the risk that it may not work. Whether this is due to the wide array of different hardware or due to the miserliness of game producers is a matter of debate (although it's unlikely that such a debate may reach any worthwile conclusion). I suggest taking precautions: Play demos. Perhaps even borrow the game to test the full version (depending on where you live, there may be shops where you can do this). Read reviews (preferably customer reviews). Don't buy games for full price unless you trust the developer to support it. If you still paid a lot of money for a game that didn't work, resell it. As opposed to suggestions of legal actions, or visions of how an ideal world should be, the suggestions above may actually have a chance to help customers.

Personally, I very rarely buy games for full price. Civ4 is an exception. I expected problems at release (actually I expected *more* problems and was pleasantly surprised that the game has much less gameplay bugs than Civ3 on release). But I also trust Firaxis that they will fix these issues and that they will support Civ4 for a long time, as they did with Civ3. If I didn't have that trust, I'd never considered to buy the game for full price.

 

[joycem10]

To those of you assert that Firaxis will eventually fix all the problems with CIV IV... have any of you built a sub in Conquests lately? I'm still waiting for the final patch to fix all those gameplay bugs.

 

[Steelsmith]

I don't remember what year it was, but it was whenever Civ 3 was a new release. I assure you, I'm not making this up. It was at a Fred Meyer store, if you know what those are.

Your adamant response made me curious, so I called around. Babbages and Fry's both told me they would not return or exchange any opened product. Target said that if the game didn't work on my PC, they would exchange it for another product from the same department (i.e., a different computer game). So, I stand corrected, and my glib remark was apparently incorrect. But likewise, the assertion that "no one" will return or exchange a computer game isn't quite right either.

 

[Efexeye]

I don't remember what year it was, but it was whenever Civ 3 was a new release. I assure you, I'm not making this up. It was at a Fred Meyer store, if you know what those are.

Your adamant response made me curious, so I called around. Babbages and Fry's both told me they would not return or exchange any opened product. Target said that if the game didn't work on my PC, they would exchange it for another product from the same department (i.e., a different computer game). So, I stand corrected, and my glib remark was apparently incorrect. But likewise, the assertion that "no one" will return or exchange a computer game isn't quite right either.

Yes, I know what Meijer stores are, I'm originally from Michigan. I'd say you got lucky that they took your return, and they probably did it because they are not a primarily software store. As for Target, I'd try it before I believed it. It's just too risky for them.

EDIT: Remember when game stores used to give you 7 days to evaluate a product, with full exchange rights within that 7 days? I do! Damn pirates ruined it for everyone!

 

[Roach]

I don't remember what year it was, but it was whenever Civ 3 was a new release. I assure you, I'm not making this up. It was at a Fred Meyer store, if you know what those are.

Your adamant response made me curious, so I called around. Babbages and Fry's both told me they would not return or exchange any opened product. Target said that if the game didn't work on my PC, they would exchange it for another product from the same department (i.e., a different computer game). So, I stand corrected, and my glib remark was apparently incorrect. But likewise, the assertion that "no one" will return or exchange a computer game isn't quite right either.

I dont know what its like in America, but over in Oz EB have a policy of returning games withing 7 days no questions asked. This is the main reason I use them for purchasing games.

In the case of Civ 4, when I spoke to them about it, they said I can wait to see if the patch worked, and if it didnt I could return the game for store credit after the normal 7 days exchange period was up.

For those of you who cant get the game working have you actually tried to return it in person? Store Policy isnt something that is generally set in stone and many people in sales would rather try to help out a customer (offer store credit perhaps) instead of deal with an 'angry' customer face to face.

If the product doesnt work and the computer system meets the minimum specs, I would have thought be reason enough to be able to return the game. That should be part of consumer law which should override store policy.

 

[Efexeye]

I dont know what its like in America, but over in Oz EB have a policy of returning games withing 7 days no questions asked. This is the main reason I use them for purchasing games.

In the case of Civ 4, when I spoke to them about it, they said I can wait to see if the patch worked, and if it didnt I could return the game for store credit after the normal 7 days exchange period was up.

For those of you who cant get the game working have you actually tried to return it in person? Store Policy isnt something that is generally set in stone and many people in sales would rather try to help out a customer (offer store credit perhaps) instead of deal with an 'angry' customer face to face.

If the product doesnt work and the computer system meets the minimum specs, I would have thought be reason enough to be able to return the game. That should be part of consumer law which should override store policy.

Very different in the US. Antipiracy policies are tough here. As for your assertion about consumer law overriding store policy- yeah, you'd think so, wouldn't you! Not the case, though.

 

[Psyringe]

Hm, question: Here in Germany the stores where you can borrow videos usually have some games too. It's a good way to test a game, since you have the original, complete game on *your* computer for a small fee (e.g. two dollars per day or something like that). I don't know about other countries. Is this a German specialty?

 

[oldStatesman]

Yes, I know what Meijer stores are, I'm originally from Michigan. I'd say you got lucky that they took your return, and they probably did it because they are not a primarily software store. As for Target, I'd try it before I believed it. It's just too risky for them.

EDIT: Remember when game stores used to give you 7 days to evaluate a product, with full exchange rights within that 7 days? I do! Damn pirates ruined it for everyone!

Very different in the US. Antipiracy policies are tough here. As for your assertion about consumer law overriding store policy- yeah, you'd think so, wouldn't you! Not the case, though.

It's not about piracy, though they want you to believe that. That is a fallacy consumers need to be educated about - one more way our rights are being eroded by the Corporate world.

It's about getting stuck with the product. Distributors pay the gaming company for the game upfront...when you return it to their store, they must exchange it or refund, either way it comes out of the Middleman's pocket. The Game company does not have to refund them. The Distributors don't want to eat the loss; piracy is a good excuse that is pr friendly to deflect criticism about the real reason they don't exchange games. A maskirova, disinformation, if you want to call it that.

You can return some opened games to some Publishers if it does not install; check the EULA. But you have to return it direct to the publisher, not the store, at your cost, that way they are out the cash, not the distributor. Civ4 is one such game - you can return it to T2 opened if you state it did not install. (some stores will take it back iff you complain enough and produce the EULA stating this; but not many.)(This is USA only.)

 

[Efexeye]

Hm, question: Here in Germany the stores where you can borrow videos usually have some games too. It's a good way to test a game, since you have the original, complete game on *your* computer for a small fee (e.g. two dollars per day or something like that). I don't know about other countries. Is this a German specialty?

I have never come across a game store (in the US) that rents PC games- only console games. If they rented PC games, I would go and rent 50 of them, return them, and spend a couple of weeks looking for no-cd cracks on the Internet so I could play them on my PC, and I am a basically honest guy. The temptation would simply be too great.

oldstatesman- don't you think it has ANYTHING to do with piracy? If not, then why did I USED to be able to return games (before copy protection became widespread) and now I can't anymore? I'm no retail apologist, but I refuse to believe that some executives somewhere in a smoke-filled room got together and said "wow, this is a really great new way to screw our customers!"

 

[Steelsmith]

I remember back when I got my first PC, there was a store nearby where I could rent computer games. Of course, back then, they came on diskettes. I could install the game on my computer and play them long after I had returned the game. How times have changed, eh?

I also remember when I bought EverQuest in 1999, there was a big sign at the store saying the game couldn't be returned, since once the account key was used the CDs are basically worthless. Other games could be returned since you had to have the CD to run the game, and I guess CD burners weren't so common then.

The warranty for Civ4 (http://www.2kgames.com/index.php?p=support_warranty) says, "If for any reason You find defects in the Storage Media, or if you are unable to install the SOFTWARE on your home or portable computer, You may return the SOFTWARE and all ACCOMPANYING MATERIALS to the place You obtained it for a full refund." So if you were unable to install the game in the first place, you would probably be able to force the issue regardless of store policy. But it looks like other issues, even to the point where the game is unplayable, isn't covered.

At least none of the game publishers have resorted to "copy protection" schemes as disastrous as Sony's audio disk fiasco. Might have seemed a good idea at the time, but I imagine heads are rolling at Sony over that mess.

 

[Machete Phil]

Welcome to the world of modern PC gaming. The more diverse and varied the hardware becomes, the faster it outpaces the introduction of standardization, the more difficult it will be for developers to deliver products which do not encounter some difficulties on systems of a particular configuration.

The possible combinations of hardware make fully testing applications logistically impossible. A quality assurance team capable of verifying that an application will work for every potential customer would be a cost to put the company out of business.



The estimate of "1 in 5" people having problems is ridiculously overstated, by the way. "Just check the forums," is the most useless advice I've ever heard. Do you know what percentage of customers actually use online forums when they purchase games? Somewhere in the vicinity of 2%, mostly those who are experiencing problems (complainers tend to desire their voice to be heard by the community much moreso than people who might have praise for the game). So comments from a fraction of 2% somehow prove that over 20% of Civilization IV players are experiencing these problems? How?


Anyway, get over it. Bugs and patches are an absolute in this industry. If you really think it's a problem that can be completely eliminated on the developer's side then you don't have a very good understanding of the economics involved in producing a video game for PCs.

 

[Machete Phil]

Very different in the US. Antipiracy policies are tough here. As for your assertion about consumer law overriding store policy- yeah, you'd think so, wouldn't you! Not the case, though.

It's really not that different. Really up until around mid-2004 nearly every US EB I had visited had the same 7-day "No Questions Asked" policy.

As a poster above has keenly pointed out, their recent change is more of a corporate cost-cutting measure (with a convenient excuse) than it is related in any way to "anti-piracy" or cultural differences.


The reason their "No Questions Asked" policy persists in foreign countries is probably simply a matter of volume. Germany probably represents a much smaller portion of game distributor's revenue stream, and therefore cutting the costs associated with product returns and exchanges there would not save enough money to make it worth the sacrifice to customer loyalty and/or satisfaction.

In countries where their distrubtion network is much larger and the volume of product they move that much greater, the savings involved in disallowing exchanges and returns (including saved employee man-hours) means a lot of additional pocket money for them, even freeing them up (I'm sure) to layoff a portion of their stock-handling employees.

 

[oldStatesman]

oldstatesman- don't you think it has ANYTHING to do with piracy? If not, then why did I USED to be able to return games (before copy protection became widespread) and now I can't anymore? I'm no retail apologist, but I refuse to believe that some executives somewhere in a smoke-filled room got together and said "wow, this is a really great new way to screw our customers!"

Not much. Piracy has been around for a long time...I remember cracked software being available in the mid 90's.

Piracy has not increased that much in the last 3 or 4 years...when the total non-return policies have become prevalent. It's just that some guru in the corp world realized that they could save a lot of $$$ by not taking back opened software at all...less bother...and piracy was a ready made excuse.

Same as it is for the hardware cd copy protection schemes...it's not simple piracy by individuals that is the really bad thing...it is the piracy practiced in places like China, where it is done on a mass scale by companies with the sanction of their governments that is the real issue...and no cd copy protection scheme will help there. No, someone figured out they could make a lot of $$$ selling these schemes, and it is their best interest not to see them go away...

Again, the consumer is conditioned to accept these corporate pronouncements, and the corps have a slew of pr folks who propagate the myths..until we consumers wise up and start doing some investigating of the issues ourselves, we can expect no less.

All that said, I am against piracy totally - it does exist, and it is a problem, but nowhere near the one that we are conditioned to believe it is.

Just to get back on topic, I sympathize with the OP and tend to agree as my experience has been much the same - the patch did not really stop the CTD or BSOD's. I don't believe they are stupid for holding out. And I would not blame them if they did return it either. It's a personal choice.