America: Freedom to Fascism

[Mechanicalsalvation]

One thing connected with the issue of goverment conspiring against its citizens is the psychological impact it has on the people. After all government is supposed to protect its citizens in free democratic society and not to sometimes fail at that, make mistakes or be otherwise prone to error like any institution made up of human beings.

I dont think anyone is arguing that individuals or government cant fail. To fail to fulfil ones duty and responsibility is always a possibility and no reasonable person can say otherwise.

However there are several problems and revealing fact which pose themselves as an almost insurmountable obstacles to view Bushs government as a highly incompetent and simply just making countless mistakes:

1. Lies: This government is known to lie about the 9-11 facts and circumstances. That itself isnt a proof a conspiracy but its telling about extreme lack of honesty in that administration. Thats of course a huge problem on its own when it comes to finding an actual truth. Not only did the Bush administration has lied abou 9-11 but its subsequent actions has been founded on lies and criminal in nature. At this point not considering that government to be conspiring in events of 9-11 is simply like trusting a criminal that he potentially doesnt have a bad intetions towards you. Lets face it thats not a sound thinking....

2.History of proven conspiracies: Thats right US government through its various agencies has a long history of proven unprovoked conspiracies against legal entities around the globe as well as individuals including that of US citizens. No need to add all are completely criminal in their nature. 9-11 in that respect is new only in its scope in regard to the fact that it took place on American soil. Many of the past US government conspiracies has took place out of US territory but the destruction and cost of life has been much higher. So not that much new here... Again you are asked: Do you think its improbable to expect a conspiration and harm from an entity which in past has been acting criminaly, conspiring and injured its own citizens? I dont think so.

3. Evidence: scientific studies prove the official stories wrong; available data point to the fact many things were not properly investigated and that government has been lying and even actively trying to block proper investigation. In fact the only way one can make sense out of all the available data and of what happened is to seriously consider involvement of at least part of the government which necessarily points at inside knowledge and conspiracy.

Projecting conspiracy theories on to government to maintain the illusion that it is all powerful is a way to protect ones sanity but cant help to resolve the problem. Its an escape and like every escape can be at most only a temporary solution.

How is seeing ones goverment as a potential threat an escape? It seems I have to learn more of a human psychology....

I am not seeing the US government as all powerful but if you connect the dots from operation Northwood through JFK assasination, from Federal reserve being a privite corporation with almost unlimited financial power(to corrupt) through steady degradation of US democracy, from senators and MPs claiming they have no power to infuence governments policies through laws which are limiting to freedoms of citizens etc. etc. you can get interesting if not quite scary picture.

 

[Agent327]

The point is, however, nothing new is being presented here, and it's already well-known a conspiracy was going on: the Bush administration used 9/11 as a pretext to invade Iraq (which had nothing to do with it) and start the 'War on Terror', primarily involving the abrogation of various civil liberties in the name of 'patriotism' (Patriot Act) and the illegal abduction of 'suspected terrorists' who've never been brought to trial in blatant disregard of the Constitution. This found wide acclaim both by US legislators and the American public at large. The War on Terror has been continued under the Obama administration, which uses drone attacks to eliminate 'suspected terrorists' and anyone who happens to be close to them at the moment of attack.

But of course, if you like to theorize about an additional conspiracy, go right ahead.

 

[SLAAKMAN]

The point is, however, nothing new is being presented here, and it's already well-known a conspiracy was going on: the Bush administration used 9/11 as a pretext to invade Iraq (which had nothing to do with it) and start the 'War on Terror', primarily involving the abrogation of various civil liberties in the name of 'patriotism' (Patriot Act) and the illegal abduction of 'suspected terrorists' who've never been brought to trial in blatant disregard of the Constitution. This found wide acclaim both by US legislators and the American public at large. The War on Terror has been continued under the Obama administration, which uses drone attacks to eliminate 'suspected terrorists' and anyone who happens to be close to them at the moment of attack.

But of course, if you like to theorize about an additional conspiracy, go right ahead.

So youre stating that everything is just business as usual and we should just ignore the corruption & legal violations because someone might call us a "conspiracy theorist"?

 

[Leoreth]

How is seeing ones goverment as a potential threat an escape? It seems I have to learn more of a human psychology....

One of the most fundamental human fears is the inability to control our fate. That extends to government as its control over our fates is huge in modern times.

It is easier to accept that our fate is controlled by malicious forces than to admit that it is impossible to control at all.

(I'm not going to argue the validity of conspiracy theories with you here, nice try though.)

 

[Daw]

One of the most fundamental human fears is the inability to control our fate.

I've seen an interesting concept related to that some 10 years ago, which is pure theory by now and I've given up to find it now on the Internet even in Russian, let alone translated. So I'll be retelling:

The core thing is that the freedom of choice and variety of available options is an illusion, we can only make one single decision on any given problem/choice at any given moment. We make that decision based on many factors, including major ones (like our knowledge on the subject, our ability to calculate outcomes, our inclinations, etc.) and minor ones, such as our mood at the moment influenced by our health conditions and relations with those around us. All these factors are practically innumerable, which makes our reactions hard to predict, and provides the impression of freedom of choice. And this works for everyone.

The impression is false though, because of that word "practically" highlighted above. Theoretically, all the factors can be accounted for, and the exact reaction modeled with 100% accuracy. It's just that we cannot do it now, but since it is theoretically possible, it may also become practically possible in the future.

The conclusion is that although we don't know our fate (let alone control it), it is as "pre-set" for everyone as if it was written down in a Book of Fate or some other creepy ancient incunabulum. And can be predicted.

***

My own development of the idea would be that knowing one's fate (when it is possible to be accurately modeled) means controlling it. Because once one knows one's fate, it is an altered <knowledge> parameter, and the whole fate model should be scrapped at this moment and recalculated anew.

Example:

I've written this post because, based on all parameters and factors, including my emotions from talking with my family this morning and the temperature of my coffee I'm currently having, it occurred to me that it would be a good idea to post it. I've also read it before submitting and corrected as many errors as I could find (given all the parameters, again) and even rephrased some sentences.

If I knew your reaction on it in advance (which theoretically can be modeled if I know all the parameters affecting you), I might revise my post more or even not submit it at all.

But since, as noted, it's practically impossible for now, I have no other option than to post it, which I mistakenly think to be my free choice.

 

[SLAAKMAN]

One of the most fundamental human fears is the inability to control our fate. That extends to government as its control over our fates is huge in modern times.

It is easier to accept that our fate is controlled by malicious forces than to admit that it is impossible to control at all.

Then you should convince the bureaucrats that they have nothing to fear from the majority of the population so they can end the NSA surveillance of every cell phone & computer on earth.

(I'm not going to argue the validity of conspiracy theories with you here, nice try though.)

Ill bet you cant even define the brainwashing smear, "conspiracy theory".

 

[Leoreth]

Excuse my misuse of the word. I meant "conspiracy hypothesis".

 

[SLAAKMAN]

I meant "conspiracy hypothesis".

Can you define that?

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

One of the most fundamental human fears is the inability to control our fate. That extends to government as its control over our fates is huge in modern times.

It seems correct that the apparent inability to control ones fate often creates kind of a subtle fear. However this is in most cases actively counteracted through some positive approach. We know that we are all going to die but instead of that we focus on the pleasurable side of life etc.
But I would argue thats also what I often see that people are doing in regard to so-called conspiracy theories. Instead facing the facts which may through their comprehension lead to point of no return (death of their way of seeing the reality and the end of certain confort associated with it) people tend to lean towards their old beliefs in spite of the rational evidence.

Also its true that technological advance can be misused and create apparent perception that our life can be somewhat hugely controled. I would argue that this is perhaps not as true as it appears. In the past the church could perhaps burn all the books it wanted to while nowdays all you type can be tracted (by goverment) but whats the difference? In both cases some vehicle for your mental activity can be tracted and destroyed/misused but thats all it comes to. I belive with all the other freedoms its quite simmilar.

It is easier to accept that our fate is controlled by malicious forces than to admit that it is impossible to control at all.

If I am to speak for myself neither of the two can satisfy me while I believe both are to an extent true.

(I'm not going to argue the validity of conspiracy theories with you here, nice try though.)

Its your choice to view and discuss the presented topic from whatever point you like.

 

[Leoreth]

I can define all sorts of things.

Its your choice to view and discuss the presented topic from whatever point you like.

I'm genuinely happy to hear that

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

I've seen an interesting concept related to that some 10 years ago, which is pure theory by now and I've given up to find it now on the Internet even in Russian, let alone translated. So I'll be retelling:

The core thing is that the freedom of choice and variety of available options is an illusion, we can only make one single decision on any given problem/choice at any given moment. We make that decision based on many factors, including major ones (like our knowledge on the subject, our ability to calculate outcomes, our inclinations, etc.) and minor ones, such as our mood at the moment influenced by our health conditions and relations with those around us. All these factors are practically innumerable, which makes our reactions hard to predict, and provides the impression of freedom of choice. And this works for everyone.

The impression is false though, because of that word "practically" highlighted above. Theoretically, all the factors can be accounted for, and the exact reaction modeled with 100% accuracy. It's just that we cannot do it now, but since it is theoretically possible, it may also become practically possible in the future.

The conclusion is that although we don't know our fate (let alone control it), it is as "pre-set" for everyone as if it was written down in a Book of Fate or some other creepy ancient incunabulum. And can be predicted.

The problem here is that we dont know the totality of our existence and while our apparently limited existence may not be infinite the source of it can be. And I dont think while we like to say that our bodies are created from cosmic dust it makes sense to claim that we are totally disconnected from source of this cosmic reality. That would perhaps mean that while you could make predictions highly over 90% most of the time the existence of some infinite reality would make 100% prediction an illusion and an impossibility. On the top of that human existence is likely going to become more complex and also more potent and free which is going to add a lot of more counting into the equation.

***

My own development of the idea would be that knowing one's fate (when it is possible to be accurately modeled) means controlling it. Because once one knows one's fate, it is an altered <knowledge> parameter, and the whole fate model should be scrapped at this moment and recalculated anew.

Knowledge is power but doesnt necessarily guarantee control.

Example:

I've written this post because, based on all parameters and factors, including my emotions from talking with my family this morning and the temperature of my coffee I'm currently having, it occurred to me that it would be a good idea to post it. I've also read it before submitting and corrected as many errors as I could find (given all the parameters, again) and even rephrased some sentences.

If I knew your reaction on it in advance (which theoretically can be modeled if I know all the parameters affecting you), I might revise my post more or even not submit it at all.

But since, as noted, it's practically impossible for now, I have no other option than to post it, which I mistakenly think to be my free choice.

We are instruments of intelligence not vice versa. (But that is a different conspiracy...)

 

[sophie]

Excuse my misuse of the word. I meant "conspiracy hypothesis".

conspiracy conjecture, perhaps?

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

conspiracy conjecture, perhaps?

And that comes from someone who hasnt single once hinted at remote surmise of any source. See I can play that game too...

 

[Gary Childress]

And that comes from someone who hasnt single once hinted at remote surmise of any source. See I can play that game too...

If you look around the Internet there are plenty of videos and sites that debunk pretty much all the claims of 9/11 conspiracy theorists. Why should any of us believe that 9/11was a conspiracy when simpler explanations seem to exist?

 

[Leoreth]

conspiracy conjecture, perhaps?

Sure, but I didn't dare to say that because someone might ask me to define it.

If you look around the Internet there are plenty of videos and sites that debunk pretty much all the claims of 9/11 conspiracy theorists. Why should any of us believe that 9/11was a conspiracy when simpler explanations seem to exist?

By the rules of this thread, and how these types of discussions generally go, you are supposed to endure a barrage of videos and links of dubious credibility and then do the actual work of refuting every single point raised in those sources, at a level of detail and rigor never demonstrated by those who rely on people with youtube accounts to make their arguments for them.

The rule is if you can't convince the OP they're wrong, you're wrong. And they will find some minor point to quibble no matter how exhaustive your reply is.

If you refuse to engage their points, or address the framing of the discussion on a meta level, you are either brainwashed, willfully ignorant, or actively engaging in brainwashing.

I'm sorry but just turning away and rejecting the premise as unconvincing is not an option.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

If you look around the Internet there are plenty of videos and sites that debunk pretty much all the claims of 9/11 conspiracy theorists. Why should any of us believe that 9/11was a conspiracy when simpler explanations seem to exist?

Hello Gary, it would be great if you (or anybody else) brought about these sources so we could compare them and evaluate them against the evidence presented elswhere. So far I have had a look into only one such a site: Skeptoid https://skeptoid.com/ presented in the other thread by Commodore and I find its way of dealing with the issues concerning 9-11 quite underwhelming and easily to be debunked. To be fair Commodore presented some other links which I havent checked yet but I may eventually do so especially if presented in this thread.

By the rules of this thread, and how these types of discussions generally go, you are supposed to endure a barrage of videos and links of dubious credibility and then do the actual work of refuting every single point raised in those sources, at a level of detail and rigor never demonstrated by those who rely on people with youtube accounts to make their arguments for them.

The rule is if you can't convince the OP they're wrong, you're wrong. And they will find some minor point to quibble no matter how exhaustive your reply is.

If you refuse to engage their points, or address the framing of the discussion on a meta level, you are either brainwashed, willfully ignorant, or actively engaging in brainwashing.

I'm sorry but just turning away and rejecting the premise as unconvincing is not an option.

I am a fresh mind and unexperienced opponent to these discussions since I havent engaged in them before but I do understand since with many it may be otherwise that they may be quite tired of this topic. However I still have to see the proper data and believable facts which could remove my suspicion and doubts of Bushs government as an entity actively involved and conspiring in the events of 9-11. Just to remind you we know that the same administration has been convicted of conspiring/ breaking of laws in regard to invasion of Iraq and Afganistan resulting in destruction and human suffering many factors higher than that of 9-11.

Also Id like to state that this thread has no specific rules beyond seeking honest debate and possibly through not too rigorous and not too time consuming interchange come at some solid understanding.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Got to love youtube. Here is a nice vid about the psychological impacts of 9-11 concerning cognitive dissonance and denial of the facts (Its a bit flatttering to me that I have hitted it about right):

Starts with: Marti Hopper, Ph.D licensed clinical psychologist:
"I think its safe to say that becuse of 9-11 we have experienced trauma collectively as a nation."

1'45'': Frances Shure, MA licensed proffesional councelor:
"When we hear an information that contradicts our world view the social psychologist call the resulting insecurity 'cognitive dissonance'."

3'05'': Robert Hopper, Ph.D licensed clinical psychologist:
"When your beliefs are challenged fear and anxiety are created. In response to that our psychological defenses "kick in" and the protect us from these emotions. 'Denial' which is probably the most primitive psychological defense is probably the one most likely to kick in when our beliefs are challenged.

And there is much more:


Link to video.

 

[PhroX]

Nice quotes. And indeed, they do seem to explain rather well why people like you continue to deny the simple truth about 9/11.

 

[Joecoolyo]

Maniacalsalivation is right, denial isn't only a river in Egypt.

Let me ask you this. Have you ever met someone from New York City? I've been thinking about this for a couple minutes, and no, I can't say I have.

Have you ever been to New York? I've checked my pockets and my wallet still exists, I can't say I have.

What I'm trying to get at here is that New York City is a hoax. A fraud. A sham. An invention by Hollywood elites looking to ship chic merchandise. 9/11 was merely a B-movie that everyone has eaten up as the truth. They rolled with it and now 9/11 is a billion dollar industry. The government has merely joined in on the circus because they want to steal your gold.

The towers never existed. The city has never existed. Airplanes are fiction and don't exist either (the earth is flat and flying upwards through space, plane science simply doesn't fly).

Only believe what you see with your eyes, and your heart, and your appendix (your truth organ, which is why the government tries to steal it). Don't fall into the trap and give all your gold away to the 9/11ists.

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Nice quotes. And indeed, they do seem to explain rather well why people like you continue to deny the simple truth about 9/11.

Well I am looking for truth which is an opposite of denial by the deffinition. And I am finding that word "simple" doesnt fit the case no matter from what side you try to look at what happened. Its usually the people who are convinced they have got all figurated out who are likely to miss the truth.