An Alternative to the "Pyramids" Strategy

Bogustrumper

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Many writers have mentioned how vitally important it is to build the Pyramids. And granted, the Pyramids are wonderful. The boost they give both to Science and Happiness (via Representation) really slingshot the player into a powerful and almost winning position right out of the box.

There is just one problem: In the upper difficulty levels (Emperor and above), building them is nearly impossible—or just not worth the effort.

First off, you absolutely must have Stone. Without Stone, you can chop Forests to a fare-thee-well, and some other Civ will pile up those Quarry blocks faster than you can. All you’ll end up doing is permanently denuding your landscape (which doesn’t do your Health any good), and ruining squares which could later run Lumbermills.

Even with Stone The Pyramids are hard. Oh, you might manage them all right, but unless the map is virtually perfect, you’ll expend so much time that other Civs will shoulder into your vicinity, plop down Cities, and steal other, more critical resources. If you don’t play your cards exactly right, your troops will be standing there admiring their newly-built megalith—just before they’re crushed by invading hordes of Axemen or Swordsmen.

To get the perfect map, i.e., one with close, workable Stone, Forests in just the right places, and ready access to either Copper or Iron for defense, you’ll play at least ten—maybe twenty—openings before you finally get the right set-up. This is enormously time consuming.

Here’s another way: Forget the Pyramids. Let some other Civ build them. There are other, easier ways to get what the Pyramids offer, i.e., Science and Happiness. Let’s start with Science:

The Pyramids (via Representation) promise three extra beakers of research for every Specialist you run. But you can’t run too many Specialists in the early phases of the game without seriously impeding your growth. Excess growth is better used hurrying improvements and/or defenders via Slavery. So the Science boost doesn’t really start to kick in until the middle game.

Money you can use immediately. Rather than setting your heart on Stone, plot your first Cities with either Gold, Silver, or Gems in mind. If you don’t have at least one of these in easy reach, you might as well forget the map and start over. Without the Pyramids, you need gold.

The next time you’re playing, try selecting and deselecting a Mine square (via the City Screen), and see how it changes the research bar. Often the operation of a single Gold Mine can reduce research times by a third or more. In the early phases of the game, this is key. As the game wears on, augment these monies by building Cottages. As the value of those first Mines begins to diminish, your Towns and Villages will start to come on, keeping your Science humming.

But Villages and Mines can only go so far. To really kick your Science into overdrive, you need one more thing: The Great Library. Fortunately, it’s pretty easy to get. All you need is Literature, a Library, and the energy to build it. If you’ve got Marble, more’s the better, but Marble isn’t nearly as critical to the Great Library as Stone is to the Pyramids. With a little advance planning, you can either chop-rush it, or pop it, and still have time to spare.

Literature’s a pretty cheap tech; other Civs rarely research it first. If you’ve gotten your Mines and settlements working right, steal up on it at an opportune moment, and then build that Library. The Great Library gives a City three free Science Specialists—which is huge.

Build the National Epic in the same City as the Great Library, and not only will you be pumping out enough Science to at least keep pace with your rivals, but that City will generate a constant supply of Great Scientists, which you use to build Academies. Once those Cities build Libraries, Universities, Observatories, etc., they become little Science powerhouses.

It’s a given that even with the most careful play, you won’t be the tech leader until very late in the game. That’s ok. All you have to do is more or less keep up. If you’ve planned your growth properly, by the time you enter the end game, your Science will be coming on like a lion, and you’ll finally earn the appellation of “The Worlds’ Most Advanced Civilization.” From then on it’s a cakewalk.

Pyramids also bring Happiness. This loss is much easier dealt with. Just move along the tech tree and either research or trade for The Monarchy. Change over to Hereditary Rule, and then stock your Cities with soldiers. This is more than enough to pacify your citizens until you’ve either conquered or traded for Happiness resources such as Sugar, Furs, Wine, etc.—or built Happiness improvements, such as Markets, Temples, Cathedrals, and so on.

Playing the game this way demands more concentration. Rather than relying on a one-trick pony, such as the Pyramids, you try to orchestrate the growth and expansion of your empire so that all phases of your Civilization work in harmony.

I usually play with only the Cultural, Time, and Conquest victory options selected, because I play Civilization IV for keeps. My aim is to conquer the world.

Building a Space Ship, or trying either to Dominate or Diplomate the globe—is for weenies, and I don’t bother with it. A Cultural win sounds like fun, but I’ve yet to try it. Nevertheless, I may, because my regular strategy works like clockwork, and I’m looking for a challenge.

So, if you want to become Grand Poobah of The Entire Civilized World, the accompanying .pdf file contains Bogus Trumper's tried and true strategy for doing just that:
 

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While I agree with some of the points you want to make, you exaggerate a lot, and I think that really hurts your presentation.

And I would also like to point out that disabling spaceship and diplomatic victories is a handicap -- you make the game easier for yourself by eliminating methods by which the AI might snatch a victory.
 
On the higher levels, I've found that Great Wall = GE = Mids; however, this won't work in BTS (GW doesn't give GE points; or so I've heard).
 
Although I agree that the Great Library helps a lot with science, it's worth pointing out that the great library plus representation (from pyramids) is even better.

My favorite way of getting the pyramids is the "rock thrower's gambit." Find stone (easier said than done), and establish a trade route to a nearby industrious civ. Trade them the stone, or just give it to them if they don't have any good resources. While they're building the pyramids, you build up an army of your favorite rush unit. As soon as they're done building the 'mids, you march in and attack their capital. That way you get the 'mids, an army, and another capital city.
 
Works great if they're close.
 
Hmmmm? Turning off victory types that the computer is more likely to win, huh. Generally the AI will only win via space or score in my games, though in BTS I understand they do shoot for culture sometimes.

Still, you can play the game how you want :). Also, good point on the mids...I hate relying on wonders. I'd much rather take wonders from other civs. That way, I have the wonders AND an army...
 
There is just one problem: In the upper difficulty levels (Emperor and above), building them is nearly impossible—or just not worth the effort.

I disagree. And if you look at some of the very tuff games posted, you will see this just isn't true.

First off, you absolutely must have Stone. Without Stone, you can chop Forests to a fare-thee-well, and some other Civ will pile up those Quarry blocks faster than you can. All you’ll end up doing is permanently denuding your landscape (which doesn’t do your Health any good), and ruining squares which could later run Lumbermills.

No, you don't absolutely must have stone. And while it is true that chopping will hurt your health, and wreck your later chance for lumbermills, some sacrifices are worth it in a pinch.

Even with Stone The Pyramids are hard. Oh, you might manage them all right, but unless the map is virtually perfect, you’ll expend so much time that other Civs will shoulder into your vicinity, plop down Cities, and steal other, more critical resources. If you don’t play your cards exactly right, your troops will be standing there admiring their newly-built megalith—just before they’re crushed by invading hordes of Axemen or Swordsmen.

Yes, you should play your cards right, but you don't have to play them perfect.

To get the perfect map, i.e., one with close, workable Stone, Forests in just the right places, and ready access to either Copper or Iron for defense, you’ll play at least ten—maybe twenty—openings before you finally get the right set-up. This is enormously time consuming.

Ten to twenty openings is just silly...

Here’s another way: Forget the Pyramids. Let some other Civ build them. There are other, easier ways to get what the Pyramids offer, i.e., Science and Happiness. Let’s start with Science:

Why would you want to let another civ have the advantage of getting the mids? Alright, lets look at the science then...

The Pyramids (via Representation) promise three extra beakers of research for every Specialist you run. But you can’t run too many Specialists in the early phases of the game without seriously impeding your growth. Excess growth is better used hurrying improvements and/or defenders via Slavery. So the Science boost doesn’t really start to kick in until the middle game.

You DO realize that the mids allows +3 pop extra growth right?

Also, the science boost kicks in immediately, you just have to take advantage of it.

Money you can use immediately. Rather than setting your heart on Stone, plot your first Cities with either Gold, Silver, or Gems in mind. If you don’t have at least one of these in easy reach, you might as well forget the map and start over. Without the Pyramids, you need gold.

What?!

Now I understand where your 10-to-20 restarts estimate is coming from.

The next time you’re playing, try selecting and deselecting a Mine square (via the City Screen), and see how it changes the research bar. Often the operation of a single Gold Mine can reduce research times by a third or more. In the early phases of the game, this is key. As the game wears on, augment these monies by building Cottages. As the value of those first Mines begins to diminish, your Towns and Villages will start to come on, keeping your Science humming.

Umm, do you realize even a single running scientist with the mids not only gives 6 beakers instead of 3, but it also contribs to give you Great Scientists. Even just one of these will either give you an academy = 50% sci boost, or you can absorb him for +9 beakers & 1 hammer, which btw doesn't even need a pop point unlike your mine which DOES require this.

But Villages and Mines can only go so far. To really kick your Science into overdrive, you need one more thing: The Great Library. Fortunately, it’s pretty easy to get. All you need is Literature, a Library, and the energy to build it.
Actually, you need Aesthetics with BTS, but that's another story...

Literature’s a pretty cheap tech; other Civs rarely research it first. If you’ve gotten your Mines and settlements working right, steal up on it at an opportune moment, and then build that Library. The Great Library gives a City three free Science Specialists—which is huge.

Umm, no. TGL only gives you two scientists, not three. And sadly, since you just told everyone not to build the mids, that means they only get the power of 2 scientists. Now had they followed doctrine from high ranking players like Cheffster, they would have built the mids, which DOUBLES the power of TGL to give FOUR great scientists. I still don't see where 3 comes from.

Build the National Epic in the same City as the Great Library, and not only will you be pumping out enough Science to at least keep pace with your rivals, but that City will generate a constant supply of Great Scientists, which you use to build Academies.

You will also be pumping out great artists as well due to the NE. I suppose, if you ran a lot of scientists in the city, then you could dilute the artist pollution to minimize this, but in that case, you were much better off building the mids in the first place!

It’s a given that even with the most careful play, you won’t be the tech leader until very late in the game.
It is? While it is true that you will sometimes find yourself falling behind on the highest levels, it's also known that the mids will make a uber strong science base early that rivals the cottage system you advice. This enables a faster jump to things like liberalism, which again propel you deep up the tree again.

That’s ok.

Phew!!!

Pyramids also bring Happiness. This loss is much easier dealt with. Just move along the tech tree and either research or trade for The Monarchy. Change over to Hereditary Rule, and then stock your Cities with soldiers. This is more than enough to pacify your citizens until you’ve either conquered or traded for Happiness resources such as Sugar, Furs, Wine, etc.—or built Happiness improvements, such as Markets, Temples, Cathedrals, and so on.

But my Lord, it takes a while to get those happiness improvements, and Monarchy is fairly very expensive at its time. And all those extra troops eat up maintenance, and cost hammers & time to produce. So why didn't you build the mids again?

Playing the game this way demands more concentration. Rather than relying on a one-trick pony, such as the Pyramids, you try to orchestrate the growth and expansion of your empire so that all phases of your Civilization work in harmony.

Ok, I will agree that this harmony thing makes sense. I'm not so sure on this one-trick pony thing? But I have to confess, I'm not a re-generate expert.

I usually play with only the Cultural, Time, and Conquest victory options selected, because I play Civilization IV for keeps. My aim is to conquer the world.

Umm, so why can't you deal with it fair & square? It seems that since not building the mids is the superior way to play, you wouldn't have to cheat. Especially since you reload if you don't like the terrain you get.

Building a Space Ship, or trying either to Dominate or Diplomate the globe—is for weenies, and I don’t bother with it. A Cultural win sounds like fun, but I’ve yet to try it. Nevertheless, I may, because my regular strategy works like clockwork, and I’m looking for a challenge.

????

So, if you want to become Grand Poobah of The Entire Civilized World, the accompanying .pdf file contains Bogus Trumper's tried and true strategy for doing just that:

I'm too scared to look at that now...
 
Obsolete just went upside your head with his heavy pimp hand. Ouch!
 
I was not sure after reading that if Bogustrumper was just trolling with a bogus post or not. After thinking on it some more, I believe it is possible he means well, but is just too inexperienced to write up a post of enough quality/calibre for this side of the forums.

I guess one thing people should get out of this thread is that there isn't much wrong with building the mids. But there is also nothing wrong if you prefer to go another strategy. Just don't get too polarized in your over-all starting strategies.

And remember, to NEVER say NEVER in a strategy post. It will always come back to haunt you.

Moderator Action: There is constructive criticism, and there is trolling. Post like this are trolling.

You can debate issues, but when it comes to trying to rub-it-in to someone who has taken the time and effort to try and contribute to this community, this type of post, and the two above, are not particularly welcome.
 
I was not sure after reading that if Bogustrumper was just trolling with a bogus post or not. After thinking on it some more, I believe it is possible he means well, but is just too inexperienced to write up a post of enough quality/calibre for this side of the forums.

I guess one thing people should get out of this thread is that there isn't much wrong with building the mids. But there is also nothing wrong if you prefer to go another strategy. Just don't get too polarized in your over-all starting strategies.

And remember, to NEVER say NEVER in a strategy post. It will always come back to haunt you.

Bogus or not it was fun post to bring back from the dead just to watch him get dismantled with a well-crafted response other than the usual "You're dumb", "No, you're dumb". Well played, sir.
 
I do like the mids but they really hurt the warmonger openings I like so much. I guess an exception would be having stone/industrious or both. In that case, the immediate benefit from them would probably let me hit harder...

For me its a situational wonder, although along with the oracle one of the only 2 I tend to plan to get early in the game. Everything else I'll just build if I have the right resource and a tech lead, and a city with infrastructure to make it, and if I don't need more troops. That's a lot of ifs, but it does happen.
 
Better than the pure science based pyramids gambit is the great wall/pyramids gambit where you use your capital as a science/espionage centre. Build a worker, warrior, settler, great wall. Second city is founded near stone and builds a worker to quarry it. Your capital is done the great wall by the time you have stone hooked up, then you build the pyramids in this second city with heavy use of the chop. The capital continues with either peaceful REX builds or axe-rush builds, and will pop a great spy sometime during the mids build or shortly thereafter. Research your way to alphabet once you have researched the techs for whatever food/happy resources are nearby. Spy bomb somebody who was worked their way down a different part of the tech tree-- usually the religious side, but you will occasionally find someone like Tokugawa beelining through metal casting/machinery/etc. A few stolen techs later and you're the clear tech leader. Your capital is running a mix of spy (after COL) and scientists (after Writing) who are all churning out some impressive beakers with representation. From here you keep adding specialists to the capital, and are getting a mix of scientists and spies. First scientist builds an academy, future ones are used for bulbing and settling, depending on your situation... IE: If you can use a bulb to snag a religion, or pull even further ahead in tech, then do that. Also, the fact that you built the mids in your second city means that you will pop an engineer there sooner later (depends if you stole metal casting and got a forge and engineer in there quickly) which you can use for a variety of mid game wonders depending on your strat. My personal favorite is the Parthenon for the 50% GPP, but sometimes it comes early enough you can still use it for the Oracle, and if you got representation then it makes the Great Library a truly useful wonder... Without rep though, I question the OP's view that the wonder is worth a damn... Frankly I wouldn't build it unless those scientists had extra beakers attached.

Anyways, with a philosophical leader you'll be popping so many spies and scientists in your capital that between self research and staggering EP counts compared to your enemies any time another civ starts pulling ahead of you in one branch of the tree, you will be able to steal it and sustain your tech lead with ease. Eventually your capital will have a settled spy, scotland yard, an academy and loads of settled scientists and be outperforming even the most advanced cottaged city. You will have visibility to most of the AI civs via espionage, and can ensure you win all the crucial races like Liberalism, and later game to all those techs with the free great people who you can then use to found corporations (because with this setup, the overwhelming majority of your natural GPs will be spies and scientists, with maybe 1 or 2 engineers from the second city in due time). Basically, the combination of high science output and high espionage in your capital will make it so you can beeline your way through one part of the tree, and steal the rest. This is much better than tech trading, as it preserves your monopoly on the techs you are manually researching. It also gets you to the point where you don't need to use the science slider at all, and can turn the slider into cash (general purpose/war monger) or culture (for a culture win) or still further espionage if you need a quick burst of points to steal some expensive techs.

Now granted, going for two early wonders makes a rush with some crap unit a little difficult. It can still be done though, as the great wall is cheap and that's all you're building in your capital early on. Personally I prefer to use this pair of wonders to get the ball rolling, and wait until I can steal construction from somebody to start a real offensive war. Meanwhile, I am more than happy to let the AI hurl units at my cities, as I will be farming great general after great general to settle in my capital and pyramids city (once its done with the mids and is able to crank units that is) which, once again, means more free beakers thanks to representation.

I find the great wall/pyramids super science spy city tactic to work like a hot damn for any philosophical leader out there, but I admit I have yet to try it without that trait. For a secondary trait I have had great success with all of them-- Imperialistic (Suleiman) ended up giving me something like 4 great generals from fighting defensive wars insde the great wall, all before 1 AD. With Charismatic (Lincoln) it didn't take many generals settled before my 2 production cities were cranking out some seriously elite shock troops. Organized (Bizmarck) simply made it a lot easier to REX quickly and peacefully without going bankrupt. And the final one I've tried is Financial (Elizabeth) which worked just fine but I didn't find financial to be all that great in this context, as it really favours a heavy food based economy, and other than coastal tiles it really wasn't paying me anything-- because I was putting farms on grassland and flood plains, to pay for more scientists and spies.
 
I find that the pyramids are quite deprioterized by the AI and you can usually get them without really sacraficing your REXing. E.g. in my current game on immortal the pyramids were built somewhere around 500 AD :eek:, I was 2 turns away from education by then.
 
Providing you have decent food sources Hereditary rule is probably just as good as Rep until Rep becomes available with constitution. Sure your specialists are less productive but with a potentially unlimited happy cap and enough food you can run more of them which means more GPP anyway.
 
Context: The pyramids is a powerful wonder. 7 cities, 2 scientists in each, that's an extra 42 raw beakers in the classical period, easily 50% more research until medieval times. No, you don't get more great persons though, as you'll just have lots of GP points spread out everywhere.

Bogustrumper: I don't like pyramids, so I sympathise with you, even though the quality of this writing really needs major improvements. It sucks, I'm sorry. "An" alternative to pyramids? There are several alternative strategies that are also powerful. And get the facts right.

To Obselete: In BTS, I like the pyramids even less. You need to keep up in the power graph not to get hit by AI offensive stacks, which in BTS are now actually credible offensive stacks. Since you need units anyway, you might as well trade for monarchy and keep an extra archer in each city (You don't keep 1 warrior per city do you Obselete? Do you want a random pillager to take out your city?). So there - +2 hapiness from HR versus +3 from representation, not the same, but managable for the sake of argument, eh?

My favourite wonder is "stack of axeman", by the way. You need copper for that though.
 
I can almost always grab the pyramids on emperor, and thats without industrious. Fortunately stone is somewhere near by more often than not so I try to make that my 2nd city unless there is some monster gold/gem/silver city site nearby. In the early game if you have stone you can easily grab the GW, stonehenge, and the pyramids. Work those mines, chop some trees, etc. The pyramids usually arent built before the AD's so i usually rex to about 4 cities and then focus the capital on wonders while the other 3 are producing military orinfrastructure.
 
first off I want to say a big thank you to bogustrumper for an extremely well written guide; one of the best I've read. It goes so far beyond the "no pyramids" premise and gives so many great tips and pointers for a full game that it is pure gold for newbies like me. Plus, it took an immense effort to write up 25 pages and write thm up so well. Presentation, language and content are just ace. if you ever should read this thread again, bogustrumper, accpet my sincere thanks and admiration.

now to the many negative and sometimes insulting replies:

bogus is showing an alternative strategy to pyramids (and then some). so your argument (i.e. obsolete) "even then, the pyramids would have been better", is not valid. it's not the point he's trying to make. his premise is "no pyramids" and it goes from there. if the premise he makes ("next to impossible on higher levels") is correct or not, is another story (which I wouldn't know. I am a beginner after all).

try to look at it with a beginner's view (not that easy, I know. experience does that to you) and see the immense value in this write-up. yes there might be a dozen other and better strategies, but for every better one, there's probably three worse ones as well. also, as a beginner I don't know all those "better" ones, so bogus' stuff is very valuable to me. he doesn't suggest wrong strategies, so try to be a little constructive in your criticism. it is always easy to say "you suck" instead of saying "hey that is an idea, but look, this could be better".

again, the effort that goes into these 25 pages is admirable. give the guy a break. even if you didn't like it, I did alot and I will be looking forward to implement many of the valuable tips I extracted from this write-up.

cheers
-wannabewarlord
 
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